Mickey: Hello guys. Welcome to our show, Secondhand Confessions, for episode… uh… 8?

Pugly: Episode 8.

Mickey: Episode 8!

Pugly: A House Divided.

Mickey: A House Divided. And we would love to welcome our friend and guest star today…

Pugly: Our star!

Mickey: Walter. Welcome, Walter.

Pugly: Our shining star, Walter.

Walter: Hi, everyone.

Mickey: Hi.

Pugly: Woo!

Mickey: Woo woo woo woo!

Walter: I'm so glad to be part of this episode. I feel like a bad friend because I've never listened to any of the episodes.

Mickey: Oh my gosh!

Walter: Just yet!

Mickey: This is the first, the first confession of today's Secondhand Confessions.

Pugly: I'm literally speechless after hearing that confession.

Walter: I know, I know.

[Theme song]

Pugly: Alright. Shall we dive in?

Mickey: Yeah, let’s dive in.

Pugly: Alright, so we have some stories here that are under the umbrella title of “A House Divided,” starting with a confession called “Friend’s divorce is dividing husband (37M) and I (40F).”

Mickey: Ooh.

Pugly: This was posted by betweendivorce and the r/relationship_advice subreddit. She says: I am 40F. My husband is 37M. Names have been changed. This is long. Buckle up.

Walter: [laughs]

Pugly: My husband and I have been very happily married for 10 years. Minor bumps along the way, but nothing we couldn't communicate and work through until now. 

My best friend Cindy and her husband, Mike, are going through a nasty divorce, and it has caused a serious rift between my husband and I. I didn't realize how serious it was until this morning when he told me he was going to stay at his brother's house for the weekend. 

Mickey: What?!

Pugly: To understand the current situation, there is a bit of background I need to provide. Four years ago, my hubby's close friend, Alan, was caught having an affair on his wife. We'll call her Carol. I was good friends with Carol. Not super close, but we'd get together for cocktails a few times a month, and occasionally we'd go on double dates.

My husband told me that Alan had been unhappy for a while because Carol had stopped having sex with him. When I talked to Carol, she didn't deny this. She said that Alan had gained weight, and she was no longer attracted to him. This is somewhat true. He was around 6 ft tall and went from about 200 pounds to 250 pounds over the course of a year. Those are estimates.

Mickey: Okay, let me say something. 6 ft. Is that a lot?

Pugly: I mean, that's what the women are chasing after here.

Mickey: Skinny boys?

Walter: But 6 ft, 6 ft, 250 pounds is a lot.

Mickey: Is it really?

Pugly: Is it? I don't know BMI-wise. We can check that.

Mickey: [laughs] We're like fact checking.

Walter: Like a lot of healthy guys who work out in the gym, they will be about 6 ft, who are 6 ft, they will be about 220 or less.

Mickey: Walter, you’re already bringing your expertise onto the show. Thank you. [laughs]

Pugly: Appreciate the guidance here.

Mickey: We have never stepped foot in a fridge—I almost said a fridge. What is it called? [laughs] We've never stepped foot in the gym. [laughs]

Pugly: [laughs] The fridge though… 

Walter: The fridge we do frequent. [laughs] 

Mickey: Lol.

Pugly: Alan was a chef and started sleeping with a female coworker 15 years younger than him.

Mickey: So Alan… Oh, Alan was the one who cheated.

Pugly: Alan was the 6 ft guy. He was 35. She was 20. The affair lasted for some time before they were caught at work. It all came out. He was fired, and Carol left him. 

Cheating hits very close to home for me. My father had an affair on my mother when I was young, and it ripped the family apart. Carol and Allen had two young children, and the divorce hit them hard. I was there for her and the kids through it all. The divorce was ugly and costly. Suffice to say, it would take Allen years to financially recover. 

Throughout the whole ordeal, my husband still talked to Alan and would occasionally loan him money. The money isn't the issue, as my husband and I both work and have our own accounts. The issue was that Alan had just cheated on his wife and ruined their family. I didn't want my husband remaining friends with him.

Alan started drinking and going down a dark path. He was trying to drag my husband down with him. I told my husband, if he continues his friendship with Alan, then we would have problems. After some back and forth and me basically putting my foot down, he agreed to basically cut Alan out. We didn't need influences or people like that in our life.

Mickey: So just to make sure, Alan and what's her name?

Pugly: Carol.

Mickey: Carol… They're not this current couple?

Pugly: No, this was a historical retelling.

I should mention my husband says he didn't know about the affair, which I still question, but without proof, he knew I let it go. Alan was extremely upset when my husband told him they'd no longer be friends. They had grown up together, but I didn't want men like that in our life.

Shortly after all this, when we were reflecting on everything, my husband said something that I never forgot. He said, “One day, one of your friends will do something they regret and need you. I hope you have the same wherewithal to cut them out if I ask you to.”

Mickey: Ooh… He manifested this.

Walter: Mhm. 

Mickey: So far, what are you guys thinking? Was he right to like… or was she right to ask him not to—

Walter: What’s her husband's name again? Did she mention?

Mickey: Husband. 

Pugly: Mike.

Walter: Okay, kay, kay. 

Mickey: Was Mike or was she right to ask Mike to not be friends with Alan anymore?

Walter: I think that's tough. But I think for the most part, I'm with Mike on this one. You know, we're all not going to make the right decisions in life, and that can’t be held against us, so I think Mike needs to be a good friend and be there for Alan no matter what. I think the problem is that… what Carol has been… Not Carol, no. What’s the lady’s name?

Pugly: The poster. Original poster. 

Walter: The poster, yeah, the original poster, she's gone through something traumatic, and I think that just triggers her, and you just have to find a way to heal through that.

Pugly: Right. I think she needs to address those issues, but I don't think Mike should be supportive of Alan indefinitely and for like any—

Walter: Oh, absolutely, yeah.

Mickey: With no limitations.

Pugly: With no limitations, yeah.

Mickey: I think it's, it's fair for him to ask that of her, like, you know, to work on those issues to not be so reactive or to not be triggered. But then also, it's fair for her to be like, ok, but scale back your friendship, but not, not cut him off. I mean, like, did he do anything that he requires him to cut him off? I don't think so.

Pugly: I mean, if he's influencing, she says this stuff about him drinking more often and, you know, sleeping around with somebody who's 15 years younger. If that's going to affect Mike in some way, in a negative way, then I understand the concerns, but I don't get how him being supportive through this process, which may just be him changing his personality because of this event.

Mickey: I wonder, I wonder if she was like, you know, I'm vulnerable and said, I'm scared that this will lead you down a bad path.

Walter: Yeah. Plus, like, I feel like, I feel like Mike is a good friend, and I'm just basing that off what he told his wife. That statement alone. I don't think a lot of people are intelligent enough, or at least men, in general, are emotionally intelligent enough to say something like that.

Pugly: Which statement?

Walter: Where he said essentially if any of her friends would do that, then she should cut them off too. I guess, like—

Pugly: Do you think that's emotional intelligence speaking or just like—

Walter: I do think so because he's—

Pugly: —revenge?

Walter: He's like, forcing her to put herself in his shoes.

Pugly: Mhm… Yeah, I mean, I think it's… I don't know that it's coming from a place of emotional intelligence though. I think it's coming from a place of hurt.

Pugly: Yeah, hurt, but also, like, I think he's kind of acknowledging something about their relationship and that he already knows what would happen, like if she was in the same situation. She would be like, “Well, but I trust myself. I would trust myself to be there for my friend and not get influenced by her, but I don't trust you to be there for your friend and not get influenced by him.” I think that what he's trying to say is that.

Pugly: Should we continue?

Walter: Absolutely.

Pugly: Cut to the present, and you guessed it: My bestie Cindy cheated on her husband, Mike. 

Walter: Ughhh.

Mickey: Dun dun dun.

Pugly: Wait, maybe his name wasn't Mike this whole time. Whoops. 

Walter: Okay. The husband of the original poster.

Pugly: Mike worked in manufacturing and was laid off in the middle of COVID. He eventually went back to work at a much lower wage according to her, and money was tight for them. 

Cindy picked up a job working as a barista. As she tells it, one of her regulars was a younger guy in real estate who has an eye for her and was constantly asking her to get together. He would slip her $100 tips a few times week, she says. He knew she was married. Eventually, Cindy gave in and started seeing this guy regularly on her days off while Mike was working. She told me she always felt guilty and knew it was wrong but couldn't stop herself. She said the sex was like she'd never experienced with Mike, and she felt wanted and desired again.

They were caught when their oldest daughter came home early from school because she wasn't feeling well.

Walter: Oh no!

Pugly: Cindy was busy with her affair partner, didn't see the text from her daughter, and the daughter walked in on them.

Walter: [gasps]

Mickey: Oh my God. Yikes.

Pugly: The daughter told Mike. Mike was devastated, and they are getting a divorce.

The family has basically ostracized Cindy and want nothing to do with her currently. I and a few friends have been her support through everything. I need to say that I recognize what she did is terrible. However, my husband has pounced on this opportunity and is demanding I cut contact with her completely, just like I did with him four years ago.

He says, “We don't need cheating cradle robbers in our lives.”

Walter: [laughs]

Pugly: I explained that this is different, and the issues between Mike and Cindy are more complicated, and she feels genuine remorse and wants her family back. Also, what his friend did years ago was creepy.

He says he doesn't care about the issues or how she feels and that he made a sacrifice for me years ago by cutting out one of his closest friends, and I need to do the same for him. I told him I wasn't going to do that and that he was being petty and vengeful, and he knows the situations are completely different. 

This morning, he said he's headed to his brother's for the weekend. He said he feels betrayed. I honestly don't see how he feels this way.

I don't know what to do. I've asked him not to go, I told him I loved him, and we can talk this out. He responded with, “I'll see you Monday.” I am at a loss.

Mickey: That’s funny that he said “I'll see you Monday,” because it's like me leaving work on a Friday—"See you guys Monday.” [laughs] So it's like, he's like, “I'll clock in on Monday.” [laughs]

Pugly: Gotta do my time.

Mickey: But wait, why, why was what he did creepy?

Pugly: Because of the age gap.

Walter: Yeah, he was having an affair with a 16-year-old, right?

Pugly: Not a 16-year-old. There was a 15-year age gap: 20 years and 35.

Mickey: Oh, that's not good. I don't like that.

Pugly: [laughs] So, so that's the distinction here for her is that there was creepiness on his, on his friend's end that wasn't present apparently in this newer affair. And then also she said something about, oh, she's also concerned about the family, and I'm like reading this and I'm thinking, but the daughter walked in on those two, so how is that concern for the family? Like you're clearly showing more interest in this guy than you are in preserving your family unit.

Walter: Mhm. I'm with the husband on this one, like, four years ago, she forced him to cut ties despite him wanting to still support his friend. It's payback, b****.

Mickey: Yeah. And he said it would happen and it did. But also, it seemed like when it happened, it didn't seem like what she was mad about was the fact that the girl was young. So like, I think she's being hypocritical. I think she should have been mad about the fact that the girl was young and like, she should have been like, “You need to talk to him, like that’s not right,” you know? You can manipulate someone who's that much younger than you into a relationship, but that's not what she was mad about. She was like, he's a bad influence. He's going to make you do bad things, and then now she's like… why is she confused? I don't understand. Why is she confused that he's telling her this?

Mickey: What do you think, Flippy?

Pugly: I, I, again, I think that this whole thing about the trauma of her family unit being destroyed earlier in her childhood when her father slept with somebody else other than her mom is just… It's not adding up to me in terms of how she's responding to this in these incidents because, on the one hand… Like both family units have been destroyed by this. Both, they're both saying there's a divorce impending. So I don't understand why, you know, someone says in, in the comments, josiebadcat says: How in your mind are the situations different? From my viewpoint, on this side of the keyboard, your husband has a valid point. And I agree with that.

Mickey: Yeah. I think… Maybe… You think maybe she's more like sees it as like husbands hurting their wives rather than cheaters hurting their families?

Pugly: Mhm. Like it's not the behavior, it's the type of person that's committing it that matters? DivorceShovel says: It's not her friend that's hurt this time. As the answer to that question of how are the situations different? 

Mickey: Yep.

Pugly: So it seems like it's less personal for her this time.

Walter: Mhm.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: Maybe they need to associate with different people. Because these groups here.

Walter: Or they just need to establish like… I think the original poster, the person, and her husband, they just need to establish boundaries as to what they can say or dictate about their friendships with their friends, if that makes sense. 

Mickey: Like, you can't put rules on who I can and can't be friends with?

Walter: Yeah.

Pugly: Right. Unless they're negatively impacting our relationship.

Walter: And you can see that, yeah.

Pugly: And there's a behavioral change that accompanies that difference, yeah. I agree. Because—

Mickey: No, I think you're right. Like, I think originally when the first cheating happened, like, she should have been, like, oh, like, you know, be there for your friend, whatever. But like if he, if he started to come home late, if he started drinking more, that's something you can call out like, hey, I don't like how you're coming home later and later. I don't like how you're drinking so much. Like, that's the behavior that is the issue, not, not supporting his friend, even if his friend was wrong to do what he did.

Pugly: Right. Well, YoYoMoMa says: The lesson here is not that the situation is different. 

Mickey: [laughs]

Pugly: The lesson here is to stop being so judgmental and controlling. 

Walter: Ooh, yeah.

Pugly: Your husband should be allowed to have any friends he wants, and so should you. If it's affecting his behavior, then that's the issue, not the friend.

Walter: Exactly. YoMaMa is on point.

Pugly: YoYoMoMa.

Mickey: I can't stop thinking about like, YoYoMa actually being called, yo, yo, yo, mama! [laughs]

Pugly: It's YoYo… MoMa. YoYoMoMa. I don't know how to say it. YoYoMoMa or YoYoMoMa.

Walter: Your Mama. [laughs]

Mickey: YoYoYoMa.

Pugly: Anyways, it's a cool username. And a good point.

Mickey: [laughs] Yeah.

Walter: When she mentioned that he was 6 ft, all I kept thinking of that TikTok: 6 ft, blue eyes—

Pugly: [laughs]

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: Works in finance.

Pugly: Maybe it’s him, maybe it’s him. He’ll be on the market soon, girl.

Mickey: I’m looking for a man in finance. 6… what is it? 6’3? 6’5.

Pugly: 6’5.

Mickey: Blue eyes.

Pugly: Blue eyesss.

Walter: [laughs]

Mickey: I mean, you found the man. Just because he gained 50 pounds… Wait, who is this? Oh yeah, that was… That was the original…

Pugly: Mike. Alan? I don't even know anymore, but there is an update on this post.

Mickey: Ohh… Wait, okay. I do want to say before you update us, like I like that he wasn't like we're getting a divorce because I said this is going to happen. He's just like I need some time to cool off. I'm coming back Monday.

Pugly: That's the Reddit protocol.

Mickey: [laughs] I know. I know, on Reddit it's always like, “We're getting a divorce.” What was the last episode? You need to watch or listen to the last episode about the jar thing.

Pugly: Yeah, listen to the last episode. It's a good one. Sealed Fates.

Mickey: Yeah, that one was funny. Very overreaction, but yeah.

Pugly: Um, so this update says: I believed the situations were different because my friend is genuinely remorseful. She wants to reconcile. Alan did not. He acted as if he didn't care and showed little to no remorse. No compunction.

Mickey: [laughs]

Pugly: He regretted what he did, but not because he betrayed his wife, but because of its effect on his children and his relationship with them. This really didn't sit well with me.

Alan started partying with a younger crowd from his work—doing drugs (not weed), drinking heavily, and just overall regressing as an adult—and I didn't want him dragging my husband into it. It's really hard to accept that someone you consider your best friend could do something so vile. I try to tune out the detail about her daughter catching them because it's so sad and heartbreaking. I've always thought she was such a good mother and model wife. I looked up to her, even. What does that say about my judgment of character? Now that I've accepted what I have to do and I feel consumed with guilt. 

The thought of cutting Cindy out of my life hurts. We've been through a lot. Our families have vacationed together. I confided in her and vice versa. It's scary to imagine just telling her, “Sorry, but we're done,” and knowing that's exactly what I made ma husband do and realizing how he must have felt… [laughs] Sorry.

Mickey: [laughs] Ma husband.

Pugly: And knowing that's exactly what I made ma husband do and realizing how he must have felt, it feels real s***ty. He doesn't show a ton of emotion. He is very much a man's man. Had he told me he was feeling this way, I wouldn't have made him do it. I regret it a lot.

The responses are overwhelming. It's only been hours, and strangers are telling me I'm a horrible person and my husband should divorce me. I feel sick. I texted him a novel minutes ago telling him how sorry I was, that I feel guilty. I feel stupid, that I'm sorry about what I made him do years ago, and now I know how he felt.

I told him I'll cut Cindy out if that's what he really wants. I told him to reconnect with Alan. After four years, b****?

Mickey: Did he cut Alan off, or he just stopped talking to him?

Walter: No, he did cut him off.

Pugly: Cut. Cut. Severed. 

Mickey: [laughs] Severed. Anyway, no, but did he like—

Pugly: That's not the end of this, by the way.

Walter: There’s more?

Pugly: Yeah, there's a little bit more.

I asked him to come home and talk to me before heading to his brother's. I'm waiting for him to respond. He's too good to me. He'll probably forgive me, tell me I don't have to cut Cindy out, and I'll feel even worse. I'm not looking for sympathy. I just feel like absolute s*** right now. Thanks for the slap of reality.

Mickey: Wow, she actually listened. That’s pretty rare for a Reddit post.

Walter: But even in her response, like the beginning of it, she sounded like she was humanizing Cindy and still somehow making…

Pugly: Demonizing?

Walter: Demonizing, yeah, what’s his name? Mike? Or Alan?

Mickey: Alan.

Walter: Alan. And somehow at the end though, when she wrapped up the post, she did say that she felt bad for her husband, but I mean, when people f*** up, they'll always do crazy things that are unexplainable, so I don't know.

Pugly: I think as you alluded to earlier, it would be really prudent for her to go to therapy and address the issues with the trauma—

Walter: Absolutely.

Pugly: —surrounding the whole childhood incident of the affair and whatever else.

Mickey: Mhm. Mhm, mhm.

Pugly: What do you think, Penguini?

Pugly: Penguini thinks that, um… I can see why Cindy deserves a little bit more like re—or not remorse but sympathy and support. Do you guys agree with that? No?

Walter: Mmm…

Pugly: You think Cindy deserves more support than Alan is what you’re saying?

Mickey: More support. I'm not saying like that Alan doesn't deserve support, but I'm saying like, you know, she's obviously like, okay, let me take accountability, and like, I wanna fix things with my family, whatever, but maybe they're both like that's their response to feeling bad. Maybe Alan's response to feeling bad is to just do more bad things, and then Cindy's response is like—

Pugly: Self-sabotage.

Mickey: Self-sabotage, yeah.

Pugly: Oh, I meant Alan for that.

Mickey: Oh. Well, for Cindy, I think it's just like, “Please forgive me, please, please,” like, you know…

Pugly: People please.

Mickey: Yeah, people please. I mean, both are wrong but one of them hurts people more.

Walter: And also, I think also the original poster is judging it, like you said, based on how each of them responded to their situation. Like Cindy responded with wanting to fix things, whereas Alan, Mike… [laughs] Alan, same person, I'm just kidding. Alan just went down a rabbit hole of self-sabotage, and she probably blames him for his circumstances.

Mickey: Yeah, like he didn't, I don't know, he didn't try to get better.

Pugly: Mhm.

Walter: Mhm.

Mickey: Even though Cindy maybe was not doing it for the right reasons…

Pugly: I just wonder, I mean, how much of Alan's personality was present before the affair and how much of it was after the affair and how much, you know, is interfering with her perception of him as a person? Like—

Mickey: Yeah, maybe he's like an a**hole?

Pugly: Maybe, maybe this is just who he is, and he's just not really been that great of a friend to begin with?

Mickey: Yeah, maybe. She never mentioned.

Pugly: She never, yeah, she didn't really characterize it either way. So it's hard to tell… Like it's hard to compare these people and say, “Oh, one's the good egg, one's the bad egg.”

Mickey: Yeah. I think for me, in my perspective, like, definitely Cindy deserves more support from a friend than Alan. I think at some point, if I were Alan's friend, I would be like, what the f*** is wrong with you? [laughs] Like wake up. 

Walter: But people react differently to trauma, and—

Mickey: It doesn't mean that's right. It doesn’t mean that’s right.

Pugly: I mean, you're an adult, you've got to take care of your own actions.

Mickey: Yeah.

Walter: But however, at the same time, I guess that's the whole point of having people around you in a support system that can help—

Pugly: True.

Walter: —point out when you're going down the wrong way or whatever. So I think both are equally guilty in this case.

Mickey: Yeah.

Walter: And both are deserving of having good support.

Mickey: Yeah, that's true. Like, I wonder if her, like the poster's, what is his name? The poster's husband [laughs] I wonder if he ever sat his friend down and said like, “Hey, you need to… This is not good for you, like…” 

Pugly: “You're going down a rabbit hole that’s not healthy.”

Mickey: Yeah. And I wonder if, if Cindy—is her name Cindy?—yeah, if Cindy ever told the original poster what she was doing, and if the original poster was like, “Hey, that's not right. You shouldn't do that.”

Pugly: True.

Mickey: You know? 

Pugly: Yeah.

Mickey: Because what do they mean by support? Like it just means be there for them. Like, listen?

Walter: But also, I'll say this. I hate to generalize, but men support each other in a completely different way than women do.

Pugly: True.

Mickey: Yeah, I think men support each other, like, like what's the word? Unconditionally, and like, you know, they don't need to know the details. They're like… But then they also don't go very deeply. Like I don't know if they provide much emotional support for each other.

Walter: I don't think they even, like, I won't say that's the case with every guy out there, of course, but I think for a good bit of them, they don't, don't, you know, hold each other accountable in the sense that we might hold each other accountable.

Mickey: Yeah. I can't imagine a dude telling his best friend that he's cheating. Maybe, maybe some guys out there—like, listeners, please tell us, would you tell your best friend if you were cheating on your partner?

Pugly: That will be our question on Spotify.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: We can do that on Spotify now. Did you know that?

Walter: Really?

Pugly: But you probably use Apple Podcasts for your podcasts that aren't ours. [laughs]

Walter: [laughs] I actually do use Apple Podcasts.

Pugly: I figured. Well, um, do we have anything else in store for this “A House Divided” episode?

Mickey: I have a thread that I want to talk about. It's not like really stories. It's like, it's going to be a lot of replies to a question. So this, uh, Reddit thread is on the r/marriage subreddit, and the question is: What is the biggest thing you and your partner disagree on and how do you manage it?

Pugly: What are some popular posts? I want to hear what are some common themes in, in marriage disputes.

Mickey: So, the top comment says: When my husband and I were dating, we didn't argue or disagree on anything but finances. We just had a different mentality/perspective when it came to finances. I was a saver, he was a spender, and when the time came to lay our cards on the table to discuss finances, uh, when we wanted to move in together, I shut it down when I discovered he had quite a bit of debt and no savings.

He had multiple credit cards and carried balances on all of them. He's a grown man capable of managing his money. I wasn't about to tell him what to do because I'm not his mother, but I certainly could control my own behavior, so I did. I was not comfortable with any of that, so I told him that I am not going to sign on the dotted line. Ooh.

Walter: Ooh, I’m going to use that phrase. “I’m not going to sign on the dotted line.”

Pugly: [laughs]

Mickey: Put that one away.

That was the end of that conversation. Our relationship was fine, but I mentally kind of switched gears and just treated the relationship as fun. It was a great relationship at that point, but didn't think past the day. No future planning. [laughs] She says sorry, but I'm not going to put my future at risk for good d***.

I did love him a lot, but my pragmatic self would never let me jeopardize everything I had worked for for love. Maybe he sensed it, because months later, he wanted to talk about finances and moving in again. But this time he came with everything he had changed, got rid of his debt and extra cards, paid everything off, and started saving. But my point is don't sacrifice your goals or plans for a person who isn't alive, aligned to your life.

Pugly: Who isn’t alive.

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: [laughs]

Pugly: That's good advice.

Walter: I was going to say he's a good man, Savannah.

Mickey: Yeah! [laughs] He’s a good man, Savannah.

Pugly: Make sure he's alive when you sacrifice for him.

Mickey: When you sign the dotted line. 

Pugly: When you sign the dotted line.

Mickey: Um, and then her last thing she said was: If the person wants to be part of your life, they will make the necessary changes to adapt to it.

Walter: I agree to that. I mean, I do feel like there are certain things when it comes to relationships that no matter what, we should not compromise on, and finance is actually one of them. And spending behaviors. Because essentially, when you get married to someone, everything is now tied together, you know? Maybe you guys might want to split accounts or whatever, but when it comes to taking out loans, buying houses, all of that, that will be taken into account. So, I personally think she did it right.

Mickey: Yeah, I think so too. I think it was very smart of her to say this is a fun relationship. We're going to keep it that way, because I don't think we agree on finances.

Walter: Yeah, it's tough. I do think that our generation takes a little longer to… Or, I do feel like we are getting better because, I mean, is it safe to say that we're millennials?

Mickey: Yep. Yep.

Walter: But essentially, yes, I think we are getting better with addressing the things that are important to us because right now we are at the age group of buying houses and making these big decisions. But, you know, those things we should not compromise on, and they should always come at the beginning of the talking stage. You should not wait too long.

Mickey: I agree. I agree. I think, I think it's hard, especially when life has changed so much since our parents were young and dating, so as millennials, it's been kind of hard to navigate that conversation. But, yeah, I think it's important.

So, uh, VirtualChoirBoy said, um, after being together for 34 years, we've worked out most everything, so it's a bit fuzzy for me now. I think the biggest differences we still have are how to deal with our respective families. She doesn't always agree with how I deal with mine and vice versa.

For the most part, we take a “not my circus, not my monkeys” approach. In other words, we stay as hands off as we can. If we disagree about how private or sorry about how something was handled, we talk about it later in private. In public and in front of family, we take the lead with our respective families and support each other.

To be honest, this should make sense for a lot of people. I grew up with my family; I understand the interpersonal dynamics better than my wife could. I have a better idea of how they're going to react to things we say or do, and she is the same with her family. I think the biggest mistake couples can make is assuming that your partner understands your family and why you're doing something a certain way, so it helps to talk about it.

If you think something was handled poorly or especially if something that happened upset you, you need to be honest and talk to your partner about it, and your partner needs to accept that you may be confused or hurt or insulted or angry about how they and their family behaved. They need to be open to hearing feedback, and more importantly, adjusting how things work in the future if necessary.

Remember you're not getting into a relationship to have that other person join your family, just like they're not getting into a relationship to have you join theirs. You two are forming what is essentially a new family that belongs to the two of you—a new family that can and likely will work differently than either of your respective families. Support and protect it if you want it to last.

Walter: That's really good. I think, you know, the first thing that he said, or she said, when they were like, “Yeah, I've been married for 34 years,” I’m like 34 years? God dang, I can't even think of that.

Mickey: Mhm. [laughs]

Pugly: Literally, we have no reference for that.

Mickey: Yeah. [laughs]

Walter: 34. But I think also it's hard to say that fully that yes, you are creating a new family, but in a sense, your older families are still intertwined in one shape or the other. Also, it depends on what culture you're bringing in with, with you. Are you, do you come from an Eastern or Western culture?

Mickey: Mhm.

Walter: Something more individualistic or a community-based culture or a collectivist situation?

Mickey: Mhm.

Walter: I think that's very important to keep in, you know, keep in mind when you're, when you're going into a relationship.

Mickey: Yeah, I agree. And I don't, I don't think necessarily that like eastern cultures or collectivist cultures, when you marry into a family, you're part of that family, it’s not even that, it's just that there's like certain rules of respect.

Pugly: Cool.

Mickey: [laughs] What do you think, Squiggly?

Pugly: Family is important.

Mickey: I can't think of your name ever.

Pugly: What are you trying to call me?

Mickey: Squiggly. I'm calling everybody Squiggly.

Pugly: Flippy. I'm Flippy.

Mickey: What do you think, Flippy?

Pugly: I think that she has a good point that there… Well, I don't know what if her point was that sometimes collectivist and individualistic or people from those backgrounds, um, might struggle to coexist because of the differences in just values… Um, but I think that might be… Is that… You’re nodding.

Walter: I finally figured out the word that I was trying to say.

Pugly: What were you?

Walter: It's called “mores,” M-O-R-E-S. 

Mickey: Oh, societal mores. 

Pugly: Societal mores. Ah, yes.

Mickey: Yes. [laughs] She brought the vocab today.

Walter: I brought the Google Search.

Pugly: What was your point about collectivist and individualistic, like relationships between those two types of people?

Walter: So let's say you marry someone who comes from, you know, like a family that, like, where one's problem is everyone's problem, right? Whereas let's say your family has always, you know—

Pugly: Dealt with problems on their own.

Walter: Individually, yeah. So, I think that would be very overwhelming to your partner or overwhelming to you if your partner brings in everyone's problems into the mix and vice versa. So I think just being mindful before going into a relationship.

Pugly: Being mindful.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: That's appropriate guidance, I feel.

Walter: Snaps.

Mickey: [laughs]

Pugly: And, yeah, I mean, assessing your tolerance level for the opposite approach, you know, like whether you can adapt to it or whether it's like something that's non-negotiable for you personally, um…

Mickey: Sorry to interrupt you.

Pugly: No, you go ahead.

Mickey: I was just going to say, I think, like, not speaking from experience or anything, but like the thing is someone in the partnership can want to do things a certain way, but everything is against them to do things that way. Like their family doesn't accept them to do things that way, and I think that, I mean… It seems like both these people from this comment are from the same kind of society where they're both like individualistic society, like their families are okay with them being like—

Pugly: More hands off.

Mickey: Mhm. But like, like how, how would you guys deal with, like, if your family is more, is not hands off, but your partner's family is? Like, how, like what would be some tips?

Pugly: It's hard for me to—

Mickey: Oh my God, not you, not you with this again. Not you—

Pugly: [laughs] She hates when I do this. When I say it's hard for me to relate to that experience because it's not my personal experience, but it's just the truth.

Mickey: Like put yourself in the person's shoes and like just try, like—

Pugly: I can't. I'm the woman from that first post. Did you guys remember that first post that we just did? About um the one who couldn't relate to the situation when her husband was in it, but then when she, when it personally affected her…

Mickey: So you have no empathy is what you're saying?

Pugly: Basically, I'm OP from post one. Yes. No Empathy is my name. You can call me “No Empathy,” not Flippy.

Mickey: No empathy.

Walter: No empathy.

Mickey: No, just take a guess. I'll give you some time to think about it, Squiggly. No! That's not right. [laughs] Flippy!

Pugly: I literally just gave you my name.

Mickey: Filapia. Filapia, take some time to think about it while Walter tells us what she thinks.

Walter: I think the most thing is that for me, I think one of maybe it could be dealt with me establishing boundaries with my family too because I can definitely tell you that my family are the family that will try to intervene. [laughs] So maybe establish boundaries with my family first and also just being open and letting my partner know what dynamic I come from. So they know what they have to work through, compromise—

Pugly: Contend with.

Walter: Yes, contend with, or compromise, and, and if they're willing to compromise and what expectations they have for me.

Pugly: That's my guidance is know your limitations, know what you're willing to put up with, know what you're willing to, you know, negotiate with, know what you're willing to compromise on and know what you're not willing to compromise on. And that might be, you know, maybe it is a little too much involvement for you personally.

Mickey: Yeah. I think, and it's an important distinction between, know what you're willing to put up with and what you're willing to sweep under the rug. Those are two different things for me because like tolerance and sweeping under the rug are two very different things like tolerating something means… It doesn't mean that you will build up emotion for it. It just means you're like, oh, that's not my favorite thing, but it's whatever.

Walter: You either have the tolerance or you don’t.

Mickey: Yeah. But, like, sweeping something under the rug until it's too big for you to ignore, that's like you not actually being able to tolerate it but forcing yourself to. Does that make sense?

Walter: Yeah. And also, I think one thing I can say is that I guess that's a flaw within me, maybe if we're bringing personal perspectives in, I'm avoidant when it comes to a lot of things, so I think when it comes to a situation like that, that's not something that would work out in my best interests. It's like I have to be open and communicative.

Mickey: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah.

Pugly: What's not a situation that would be in your best interest?

Walter: Like let's say in a case where both of our families are involved and they, they… Either my family is a little bit more overbearing than his and my personal personality in general is avoidant when it comes to dealing with problems, I think that's a good, that's a good look for me in general because I must be open and talk about my dynamic versus acting like it's nonexistent.

Mickey: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah.

Walter: But yeah, this is a very hypothetical question.

Mickey: Yeah. [laughs]

Pugly: Very hypothetical.

Mickey: Any last thoughts before we move on to your next story?

Pugly: No, Penguini.

Walter: Thank you, Flippy.

Mickey: Thank you, Flippy. [laughs] I was, I was waiting for you to say it.

Pugly: I knew you were pausing for a reason.

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: Penguini, remember, it’s tilapia but with an “F.” [laughs]

Pugly: Yeah, just tilapia with an “F.”

Mickey: Oh, I know, I know how to remember this. 

Pugly: Yeah?

Mickey: Penguinis love to eat filapias. [laughs]

Pugly: That's memorable.

Mickey: Yeah. [laughs]

Pugly: Are we ready for our next story here?

Mickey: Yeah.

Walter: Yeah.

Pugly: Future mother-in-law (54F) called me (23F)… Sorry, let me start this so f***ing over.

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: Yes.

Pugly: Alright. Future mother-in-law who's 54F called me, who's 23F, stupid, and now I'm considering calling off the wedding. How do I approach the situation?

Mickey: Wow. Uh, right off the bat. Why are you calling off the wedding for one thing?

Pugly: It's not even the—

Mickey: Worst.

Pugly: —the other member of the wedding, like the other, you know, spousal part of the wedding.

Walter: But you know what they say, like when you marry someone, you're marrying their family too. 

Pugly: That is what they say. This was posted in r/relationship_advice, um, a few weeks ago on June 29th. I (23F) am engaged to John (24M). We are together for five years. We want to get married in July 2025.

I always thought that his family liked me because we get along well. He has two older brothers who are 26 and 29. Both married. Honestly, I was very excited to have them all as my in-laws. They were always kind to me. 

Some kind of important information. About a year ago when I was scrolling on Instagram, I saw a profile that was kind of cringey but in a cute way. It was an older woman's profile who shared inspirational quotes. I remember one particular post, and it was something along the lines of, “Only stupid people pretend to know everything. Don't pretend, just ask.” 

Honestly, this quote changed me in a lot of ways. Before that, I was always worried that I might embarrass myself if I didn't know something, and after reading that quote, I realized that if I always pretend that I know everything, then I'll miss out on actually getting to learn about things. So I decided to change my habits and start admitting that sometimes I genuinely just don't know.

Someone is talking about the war in Kosovo? Okay, sure, but first let me ask some questions so I can really understand what we're talking about. And I ask a lot of questions sometimes. I sometimes even open the Notes app and write in some questions that I later want to find answers to. These are my latest:

1.    How does the time work in the black hole?

Mickey: [laughs] 

Walter: [laughs] That's a very good question. I have no idea.

Mickey: That was the big one to open with. [laughs]

Pugly: 

2.    Why some snails have shells and others don't????

Mickey: Okay. Can I say something? I would love to be friends with this girl.

Pugly: 

3.    What food is okay for ducks?

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: [laughs] I feed mine bread.

Pugly: 

4.    How does the light bulb work (the old ones with gas inside them)?

5.    Does everyone see colors the same? And how can we know that?

Sorry for the long introduction, but it was kind of necessary for understanding what kind of person I am.

Mickey: She's an intellectual.

Pugly: I know that sometimes I might come across as annoying. Now, onto the problem. His parents hosted a small barbecue last weekend only for the family, so it was the mom (who's 54F), dad (who's 59), brothers, and their wives (both 27). I was the last person who showed up because I had to work late.

I entered the house, and when I was walking towards the back of the house into the backyard, I heard John's mom talking about me. To be honest, she wasn't talking about me, more like mocking me. I heard her say in a high-pitched voice: “How does the sun work? Where should I put the fork? Why does nobody like me? How do I wipe my ass?”

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: [laughs]

Pugly: I just, I just stood there. I just stood there. I had this sinking feeling. I couldn't move, so I just stood there, and I heard them all laughing. One of the wives said, “I actually don't mind her always asking questions. I think it's cute,” and it made me feel hopeful that they would say something like, “Yeah, sure. We're just playing, we love that.” But none of them did. Instead, the mom replied, “It's not cute. She's just stupid.” 

After that, they laughed again. I heard John laughing. My heart kind of broke in that moment because he didn't even say one positive thing. He didn't defend me; he just laughed.

Mickey: Okay…

Pugly: I quietly turned around and left the house. I texted John that I got sick and had to stay home. Now, I'm wondering how I should approach this situation.

We live together, and I sleep in the guest bedroom for now, and I use the excuse that I don't want him to get sick from being around me. I can't ignore him forever, and I can't pretend to be sick anymore because it's been too long. I'm not sure how do I proceed. Maybe it was just a misunderstanding.

I'm considering talking to them about this, but I'm also worried that they won't be honest with me. I can't marry him if he really thinks I'm stupid, but I also can't marry into a family who thinks so little of me. But maybe it was a joke, and I shouldn't take it so seriously.

I'm so torn apart, and every day I convince myself a bit more that it's okay, and sometimes we should all laugh about ourselves. Now, I feel like I'm just going crazy. I would really appreciate some advice.

Mickey: Yikes. This is a tough one.

Walter: John is definitely a certified mama's boy.

Mickey: Yah. I'm looking for a man who's a mama's boy.

Pugly: I'm looking for a man who's a coward. 

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: Run, run, run.

Walter: No, I think, I think I'm happy for her that she took the time. It seemed like she has taken enough time to process it, but definitely it's time now to bring it up to John.

Pugly: Mhm. Mhm.

Walter: I think if she wants to make any decision moving forward, she definitely have to speak to John about it. Like he needs to know that she knows, you know?

Mickey: Yeah, and she needs to confront him on why he didn't defend her. Even if it is a joke and it's all in good fun and whatever and that’s how they joke,  I would expect him to be like, “Hey guys, that's not funny.”

Pugly: Yeah, “That’s a little much.”

Mickey: Like, “I actually love that she does that,” or whatever. Yeah.

Pugly: Like, “I know we're laughing about it, but it's actually kind of cute to me.”

Mickey: Mhm. Yeah. 

Pugly: “That's what I love about her.”

Mickey: Mhm.

Pugly: “I love that she asks me when the stars are going to light up at night or whatever.” [laughs]

Walter: [laughs]

Mickey: Honestly, like both of those were iconic, like her note of questions and the mom's mocking of her. Both were so iconic.

Pugly: “How do I wipe my ass?”

Mickey: Yeah! [laughs] “Why does nobody like me?” [laughs] That was such a fun—

Pugly: Why are there 25 lines on a lined paper?

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: Yeah. Why?

Pugly: [laughs] I don't know. I don't even know if that's the number. I just made that up.

Mickey: I don't know what I would do if I heard. Definitely, like you said, Walter, I definitely think I should, I would confront him. But like, I mean, this is like a major thing… You said they were about to get married, right?

Pugly: They're engaged. It's next year, next July. 

Mickey: Next July. Well, I guess they have some time, but it feels like, okay, well, how long have they been mocking me? Like, these are the questions that come up. Like, how long have they been mocking me? Do they do this all the time? Like, is that one sister-in-law the only person who ever defends me? How much do they actually mean their mocking of me? Like, all these questions I think would make me feel like I don't know if I can trust my fiancé. What's his name? Whatever his name is. So, I don't know how you can work through that. Like what kind of assurance would she need to hear?

Pugly: I think I'd need to hear, um, “Yeah, the next time that happens, I definitely will be speaking up on your behalf because that was really rude of us and like uncalled for and just not even, not even reflective of how I feel about you.” Like, I was laughing at something that wasn't even true.

Mickey: Like, if you hear him, hear remorse in his voice.

Pugly: Yeah, exactly.

Mickey: But like, how do you know he's actually gonna do it? 

Walter: You know, to be honest, I think maybe that might sound strange, but I don't think the mom's comments were crazy or were that harmful until she said that she was stupid.

Mickey: Yeah, that part, that part was the worst.

Walter: Because my family would make those kind of comments. [laughs]

Pugly: Yeah, but still, I don't want my mother-in-law thinking that like I'm… Well, like, the way she was acting was that she was implying that she was stupid even without using the word stupid, so I don't, I think I would be offended regardless of if she had used the word stupid.

Mickey: Mmm. I guess that, I guess that like, depends on what your idea of like joking around us.

Walter: Yeah.

Pugly: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There is an edit on this post.

Mickey: Ooh.

Pugly: She says: There are many comments saying that they cannot stand people like me. I agree that sometimes I can be a bit too much with the questions, but with that being said, I still think I'm within reason. I don't do it around people I just met. I rarely do it at parties or other gatherings. I usually do it with people who are close to me, who I think wouldn't judge me, or with people who specifically have knowledge about something and are willing to share it.

If I'm a part of a conversation, I'm not rude, and I'm not interrupting. I usually just ask one or two questions. If a discussion is about climate change, I'm not asking about monkeys, if you know what I'm saying. I'm also not a complete dumba**. I don't ask questions which generally would be considered dumb to other people. Those I just write in the Notes app and check answers later on on the internet. I'm capable of reading, so I make good use of it.

But after all, I still do ask questions a lot.

Mickey: How did the mother-in-law even know about this note?

Pugly: I don't think she knows about the notes. I think she just asks questions more frequently than most people do in normal conversation.

Walter: We've all met a person like her.

Pugly: Yeah. Those people in class that are like in Chemistry, you know, at the 8:00 AM Organic Chemistry class when they're raising their hands asking questions nonstop, and I'm just like, oh my God, I do not even want to be here.

Mickey: So the thing is like, I've never thought that that was annoying.

Pugly: Embarrassing?

Mickey: Yeah, embarrassing. I'm like, when I see, when I hear someone like that, I'm like, huh… they’re asking questions.

Pugly: How enlightened they must be.

Mickey: No, I mean, it's important to ask questions.

Pugly: It is important.

Mickey: So like…

Pugly: But I do think Google serves a very good service, you know?

Walter: Yeah.

Mickey: Yeah. But she's saying she's not asking dumb questions.

Walter: I think she's like one of those like overly analytical, you know, introspective people maybe. 

Pugly: Um, in keeping with what you recommended, Walter, Beck2010 says: Tell John what you heard. Tell him that of all the things you heard, his reaction hurt you the most. Tell him you cannot believe how cruel his mother was, and his laughter and failure to stand up for you was like a knife in the heart. Then ask him: why should I marry you? Someone who is comfortable laughing at me when they think I can't hear them. You know I ask questions to better understand something. The smartest person in the room is the person who knows they don't know everything and is not afraid to ask.

When I heard everyone, all I could hear was ignorance, unkindness, a lack of grace, and no love whatsoever. How very graceful of you and your family to mock someone. Frankly, I'd call off the wedding.

You didn't go that far, but you did say you’d confront him.

Walter: Yeah. And I think it has to go… It has to be about how the family will react after John shares with them that what's the girl's name again?

Pugly: She didn't give names, I don’t think. 

Walter: We’ll call her Daisy.

Pugly: Okay. She does seem like a Daisy.

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: Yeah. How Daisy was actually there, and she heard everything, and essentially at that point, the family have to apologize. And I think—

Pugly: Should we do a mock conversation? I'll be him, you be her? You be Daisy and I'll be John?

Walter: Yes.

Pugly: Was his name John?

Mickey: What’s my name?

Walter: Penguini can be the family.

Mickey: Mhm. Ooh, I'm good at that.

Pugly: I'll be the, I'll be the dude.

Walter: Yeah, you'll be John. Uh, John, I have something to share.

Pugly: Yes? 

Mickey: [laughs]

Pugly: What is it? Spill the beans.

Walter: So, do you remember how I was supposed to come last night when you and your family were gathered at their house?

Pugly: Mhm.

Walter: Well, I was actually there, and—

Pugly: [gasps] You were there? You told me you were sick! What do you mean you were there?

Walter: Well, John, I was there for a few minutes, and I've heard everything.

Pugly: Oh my… What do you—Heard everything? Like you heard us just talking about Game of Thrones?

Walter: No. Actually not. Um… [laughs] I heard, I heard everything. I've heard how your mom called me stupid, and she mocked me. How dare you, John? Why didn't you defend me?

Mickey: [laughs]

Pugly: Whoa, whoa, whoa. She didn't say that. She didn't say you were stupid. She never said that. What do you mean?

Walter: She definitely did that after she mocked me. Hence why I left.

Pugly: Mocked you?! What did she say?

Walter: She was saying… [laughs] 

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: What was she saying? “How do I s***?”

Mickey: [laughs] “How do I s***?” Not, “How do I s***?” [laughs]

Pugly: “Do I put the spoon next to the fork?”

Walter: “Where do forks come from?”

Mickey: [laughs]

Pugly: [laughs] Oh…

Walter: So yes.

Pugly: Okay, I actually, now that you mention it, it's bringing back some memories. It's bringing back a little bit of memories.

Walter: So John, why didn't you defend me? Why didn't you stick up for me?

Pugly: She was just joking, like that's just how she jokes. You know my mom. You know her.

Walter: But how do you expect us to get married if this is the relationship that we're going to have moving forward?

Pugly: Girl, you got to be more tolerant of her jokes. You know that's how she is. That's just what she does.

Mickey: Yeah, you have to really have some thicker skin.

Walter: Okay. I think right now would be a good time for you to discuss this with your family because I need an apology.

Pugly: So you want me to… What do you want me to say?

Walter: Tell them that I was there. Tell them that I've heard everything. Tell them that your mom was wrong. Cue Penguini.

Mickey: Is, am I here, I can't remember, am I… Is the family in the room with us right now?

Pugly: Alright, I’m John to family.

Mickey: Okay, I’m family to John.

Pugly: Um, so, uh, bad news… Um… 

Mickey: Hey, John.

Pugly: Yeah. No prob—Hey, hey, hey. No problem. [laughs]

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: [laughs]

Pugly: I'm here. No problem. There's no problems here. But, um, there is a slight problem.

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: A marriage problem.

Mickey: [laughs] Tell me you’re avoidant without telling me you’re avoidant.

Pugly: It's not a problem, it’s just… It’s just, it’s just… Um, okay, here’s the little minor problem. Like, it's just a teeny—I wouldn't even call it a problem. I'd say it's more like a minor… scuffle, you know?

Mickey: Mhm.

Pugly: You know, it's kind of like when you, when you open the mailbox and there's no mail there and you just have to go back later. It's just kind of like that level of problem.

Mickey: Mmm. Okay. Get on with it, John.

Pugly: But basically, what happened is Daisy, you know, Daisy? You know…

Mickey: The stupid girl?

Pugly: No. No, not stupid. She's, she's my fiancée.

Mickey: Just like, you know, last night, you were making fun of her with us. What do you mean?

Pugly: What, what do you mean? Uh, well, she actually overheard that conversation where you were, where you were initiating—

Mickey: Ahh, you're in the, you're in the, you're in the… What is it called?

Pugly: The doghouse?

Mickey: You’re in the doghouse, huh, John? You need to learn.

Pugly: I think she's gonna require, um, kind of an apology from you guys before—

Mickey: An apology? What do you mean?

Pugly: If I get married to her, it's gonna, it's gonna take an apology from you.

Mickey: Well, John, you need to tell her like we're not apologizing. We're your family. She needs to just like learn to handle this.

Pugly: [chuckles]

Walter: Yeah, that's a tough one.

Mickey: So jimoconnell says: Start out with, “How does the sun work? Where should I put the fork? Why does nobody like me? How do I wipe my ass?”

Follow up with, “Why should I waste my time on a partner who doesn't respect me enough to defend me when people mock me?” and, “How do I tell my fiancé that his mother is a c***?”

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: Ooh, that’s a good one.

Mickey: Period.

Pugly: Yikes… She does have an update.

Mickey: Ooh.

Walter: Ooh.

Mickey: Okay, wait, wait. Predictions.

Pugly: I’m disqualified.

Walter: Uh… I think, even though since she might have to leave this relationship, I think she's going to move forward with it.

Mickey: I'm going to be um, what's the word? Optimistic and think that he actually confronts his family, and he apologizes, and that his family is like, “Oh, we didn't mean to hurt your feelings.”

Walter: I'm gonna, just to clear it out, I'm going to be disappointed if she does not tell him. But anyways…

Pugly: If she doesn't confront him at all?

Walter: Yeah. I would be very disappointed.

Pugly: Would you be disappointed if it doesn't work out though?

Walter: No.

Pugly: Okay. Just disappointed if she doesn't ever confront him.

Walter: Correct. And just moves forward with it.

Pugly: Okay.

First of all, I wanted to say thank you to people who reached out to answer my questions about black holes, snails, ducks, light bulbs, and other stuff. I would love to have you as my friends. For the other people who said I should just shut up, I don't really care if you find me annoying or hard to be around. I'm okay with that. I don't exist to please everyone. I'm just here for a good time, have my own interests, and learn.

Mickey: She's got a good head on her shoulders.

Walter: Yes.

Pugly: Yeah.I didn't expect my post to gain so much attention, but I'm so grateful for the advice. Most of you told me to break up with him and at the very least confront him, so that's what I decided to do. You gave me a push and confidence to do it.

But before I did that, I texted the wife of John's brother, the one who said she liked me asking questions.

Mickey: Oh my God. Actually earlier, I was going to say she should talk to her. I forgot, I forgot to say it, but I really—

Pugly: A post hoc…

Mickey: I promise, I promise.

Pugly: I asked if we could meet up for coffee. She said sure. We met, and I didn't see the point in pretending to her that I didn't hear their conversation. So after some small talk, I just said, “I heard you all talking about me during the barbecue.” She immediately got sad and said she felt embarrassed. She explained that it wasn't a joke, wasn't out of context, that it was just mean and hurtful. She said she's sorry for not defending me more, but I said that it's okay, and I understand. I told her that I don't blame her for anything and just wanted to make sure that I understood the situation and see it for what it really was. And it really was laughing about me behind my back. Just bullying.

At this point, I just had to confront John. In my last post, so many comments were saying that he would probably try gaslighting me, and you were right.

Mickey: [gasps] 

Walter: How could we figure?

Mickey: How dare you, John?

Pugly: We were having dinner together for the first time since the barbecue happened because before I tried my best to avoid him. Yes, I know, not very mature of me, but other than you guys, I don't really have a strong support system. My family and best friends are hundreds of kilometers away. I only have two good friends here.

I was so stressed, I thought I was going to pass out. My legs were shaking, and I was terrified because I knew deep down that this is the moment when my five-year relationship goes down the drain.

I looked him in the eyes and asked, “How does the sun work?” He looked confused, so I followed with, “Where should I put my fork? Why does nobody like me?” At this point, realization hit him—

Walter: Go, Daisy, go.

Pugly: —and he started nervously laughing. I said I was there, and I heard them. After the initial shock passed, he got mad. He said it's rude to eavesdrop. I said it's rude to bully people.

Walter: Yeah, b****, it's rude that your family said the things they said!

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: Yeah, we talk about rude? Uh… I think there's a winner here.

Mickey: Mhm.

Pugly: He tried telling me that it was just a joke, that I shouldn't be so uptight, that it really was funny. I said that I didn't find it funny and went to the guest room to calm down. He started panicking. He was asking me to please talk to him. He was much more apologetic and said that he would be 100% honest with me.

I asked if his mother made similar comments before the barbecue. He said yes. I asked him if he ever defended me. He said he tries to. I don't know if I believe him. He told me he loves me and respects me. I don't know if I believe it either. I said that I love him too, but I need a break. He's all I've ever known. He was my first and only partner. I have no outside perspective of this. I have no experience. I need a moment to think. I will be going to my friend's house for a while to think everything through. The apartment has his name on the lease anyway.

After I gathered some of my things and left, he kept texting me nonstop. He tried calling, but I didn't respond. I was very hurt because he tried to belittle my feelings, and only later when he realized that I might break up with him, started apologizing. 

The next day, I decided to give him another chance to explain himself, and I came back to the apartment. He seemed very sad and tired. He said that he told his mother that I overheard them. I said I don't care. It's his time to step up and show me that he cares. I'm not interested in an apology from his mother. I'm already done with her. I can't put up with this behavior in mocking me like we're in primary school.

I saw a comment saying that probably her ego is hurting. I think it's true. She never got the chance or never had the desire to have an education. She is a very good homemaker, but outside of that, she doesn't have many interests of her own. If I'm asking her about making tomato soup, she will be talking for 30 minutes, lecturing me about adding enough sugar but not too much. She'll lecture anyone who's willing to listen. But anytime someone is talking about something she's not familiar with, she gets defensive and tries to imply that nobody cares about that, and if it's not relevant to her, it shouldn't be discussed.

Once again, he tried telling me that I should relax because it was only a joke, and at this point I had enough.

Walter: That is triggering, by the way. When someone tells me to relax when I'm upset.

Pugly: [laughs]

Mickey: Uh huh.

Walter: Don’t tell me to relax.

Pugly: Yeah. I took off my ring and told him that his behavior is a joke, and I can't be the punchline. I told him that I wish him and his family the best and to look in the mirror to check if they really are as superior as they think they are.

I said I'm going to be back with my friends soon to pick up the rest of my stuff and to not contact me again unless it's about moving my things out. And that's it. I'm done.

Thank you for all the advice. Without you, I wouldn't have the confidence to leave this man. I know I deserve better. I can't be with someone who can't stand up for me, and I wouldn't be able to feel comfortable around his family, so I'm done with the relationship. I hope they will treat his next girlfriend better.

Thank you again, Reddit, for the advice.

Walter: I'm so proud of Daisy. Good job Daisy.

Mickey: Yeah! I want to say, Walter, you were 100% right about him being a mama's boy.

Walter: Yeah. And the fact that she dodged a bullet when he said, “Relax.” 

Mickey: And like, if you tell your partner who's been mocking you this and their first reaction is not shame and like, “Oh my God, I'm so sorry,” that's all I need to know.

Pugly: Mhm.

Walter: Drops mic.

Pugly: Why is it so hard for people to apologize? Like, grown a** people have no…

Mickey: [laughs] Is there a rest of that sentence?

Pugly: [laughs] I was hoping for dramatic effect, but it just turned into like a Biden moment.

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: Dun dun dun dun dun… 

Mickey: Biden moment. [laughs]

Walter: [laughs] It's giving Vice President Trump. [laughs]

Pugly: [laughs]

Mickey: [laughs]

Pugly: It's getting Prime Minister Biden.

Walter: [laughs]

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: Yesterday, I think, or within the past few days, he got up on the mic and said something about how he's picking Kamala because of who she is, and instead of saying Vice President Kamala, he said, Vice President Trump.

Mickey: Oh. [laughs]

Pugly: That man… Oh, gosh. There is a comment that I really enjoyed, that I really resonated with and thought was truthful. In quotes: “I tried to defend you” is the weakest excuse. Defending your spouse is an act, not a result. All you have to do is do it.

Walter: [snaps] I like that.

Mickey: Wait, what is an act, not a result?

Pugly: Defending your spouse is an act.

Mickey: What does that mean?

Pugly: You defend them. You do it, you just do it.

Mickey: What does “not a result” mean?

Pugly: It's not the result of like whether the defense was successful or not. It's not like whether they believe, they buy into your defense or not. It's just the fact that you put yourself out there and said, “My spouse is worthy and is not like a piece of s*** that you should be degrading like this.”

Mickey: Okay, yeah.

Walter: It’s just performing the action. 

Mickey: Yeah. And she literally was there, and he didn't. 

Pugly: And he said “I tried to defend you.” There's no trying. There just is or isn't. 

Mickey: Okay, so either I defended you or I didn't. That's what they're saying?

Pugly: Right. Yeah.

Mickey: Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. If you hear of your partner, like, not defending you to anyone, that's it.

Pugly: Mhm.

Mickey: Yeah. What's the point? Are they really your partner?

Pugly: And, like, even just at the base level, not having the respect of your in-laws like that and your family, the family that you're marrying into, like, if they're talking about you like that behind your back.

Mickey: Like you’re stupid? Like, that’s so not nice.

Pugly: Even just the questions alone, like I said earlier, that would be enough for me to be, like, am I respected here? Like, probably not.

Walter: I think, yeah, I think… I'm so glad you said that, uh, Flippy.

Pugly: [laughs]

Walter: I think that's the biggest thing is that when it's all said and done, I think if you have a relationship with someone, whether it's a friend, a coworker, or whatever, it doesn't matter if they love you or they like you or they care about what you say. It's just a matter of respect. Do you respect me as a person? And I think if there is no respect, then you're just creating a space for all kinds of shenanigans.

Mickey: Yeah, I agree. I agree.

Pugly: Yeah, I think respect is the base level of, like, the foundation for which a marriage should begin, and it is non-negotiable too. Like, you can't, you can't have a relationship or a marriage without respect being the foundation.

Mickey: Yeah. Do you think you can lose respect for your spouse and then gain it back?

Walter: Um, you, you only, I think you would only lose respect for that person if they put themselves in a situation where they humil—humilate—what's that word?

Pugly: Humiliate?

Walter: Hum—I can never say that word. Whatever word that Flippy just said. If they ever did that to themselves or to you especially.

Mickey: Mhm.

Walter: And I think, especially if they did that to you as their partner, that's where you would lose respect for them.

Mickey: Okay, but she's walked in on him not respecting her, right?

Pugly: Mhm.

Mickey: So, do you think there's like, let's say he actually reacted well when she brought it up to him. (Obviously he didn't, but let's say he did.) Is there any way to gain that respect back? Is there any way for him to go from not respecting her to respecting her?

Pugly: I think…

Mickey: But he has to want to do that.

Walter: Yeah.

Mickey: Like he can't just… Because if he doesn't really want to respect her, then…

Walter: I think, I think acknowledging what happened, I think for this thing to have worked out, his only option was to admit to what happened. 

Pugly: Right.

Walter: And to apologize and take ownership.

Pugly: Right. Of the fact that he was treating her like s***. 

Walter: He did none of that.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: No.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: Yeah, I think you have to look at your own actions and be accountable for them.

Walter: Yeah. People just don't want to carry the weight of accountability because it’s heavy.

Pugly: Or guilt, yeah.

Mickey: Yeah, they don't want to know that they did something wrong.

Pugly: Yeah.

Mickey: Well, I guess that's why people don't apologize. It’s because they don't want to admit that they did something wrong. I mean, is that something… That's a learned behavior though. Like, apologies are a learned behavior, and, and—

Pugly: Swallowing your pride.

Mickey: It's like restorative. Restorative justice.

Pugly: Sure.

Mickey: Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. But we've talked about this before. Are apologies worth anything if there's no action associated with them?

Walter: I think it really depends, like if the situation only calls for an apology, a sincere apology, then yes. But if the situation calls for a corrective action, then the apology will not hold any weight if the action is not followed by it or preceded by it, so…

Mickey: Yeah, like I guess I, I ask because he could have like, you know, owned up to this and been like, “I'm so sorry,” but how can she trust him if she doesn't see that things will change? Like I feel like I would want to see an extra step of him talking to his family, and maybe even his family being like, you know, “We didn't mean to make you feel bad,” or even if they don't want to address it directly, if they're not that type of family, like her mom to be like, you know, “I want to take you out, like it's been, you know, I know it's been rough for you, your family isn't here. Let me take you out.” Like some, some kind of something to show her that things are changing.

Walter: Yeah. Obviously in that situation, let's say if Daisy was actually wanting to move forward with him, the only way she would move forward is that not him just apologizing and then, then, you know, skipping down the aisle; that's not how it's going to work. It's like he has to apologize, and he has to set a plan or an action that he's going to take regarding the situation. Like is he going to confront his family? Are they going to come up to her? Are they going to discuss it as a group? What's going to happen?

Mickey: Yeah.

Walter: Yeah, I agree with you on that.

Mickey: Yeah. Because some people are just… [laughs] Some people are just good at like apologizing. [laughs] Some people are just good at apologizing is what… I'll leave it at that.

Pugly: I agreed with most of what you said earlier about apologies being… Like, if an apology is warranted as the only necessary thing to overcome the issue, then that's fine, but most of the time (I think it was what you were implying), there's corrective action that needs to be had as well.

Walter: And I think also corrective action could look like future scenarios that are, that are going to happen. And do you just keeping an eye on those? Like if you guys find yourselves in similar situations in the future, how are we behaving? Are we behaving similar to how we behaved in the past or are we actually, are we changed? Like are we exhibiting different behaviors?

Mickey: Mhm.

Walter: So, yeah.

Mickey: Yeah. It's all about trust.

Pugly: How are y'all feeling? Should we be done?

Walter: Okay, so I have a question. My question is, since this whole episode is about relationships, if you are giving advice to either a younger you or someone else who—

Pugly: Ooh… Yikes! 

Walter: —who's getting in a relationship, what is the number one parting advice that you would give this person?

Pugly: Oh, I have one.

Walter: As far as like, yeah.

Mickey: That was quick.

Pugly: Yeah. It came to mind easily. Um… Make sure they like you.

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: [laughs]

Pugly: You know, and they show it and don't just say it. I'd say that. You know who I'm talking about.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: Yeah.

Walter: Also, I think, okay, I'm sorry, I'm going to reframe the question.

Pugly: Oh, f***.

Walter: But it's good. What is a question you are going—So if that person is asking you, “Hey, what are some questions I should bring up in our first few dates?” What is a question that you're going to give them? And it could be about anything.

Pugly: Like what question do you ask on a first date?

Walter: Yeah. Just to know about them about how they deal with certain things… You know…

Pugly: I don't have a…

Mickey: I think… I'd like to answer both of those questions, like both iterations of that question. So the first thing I would do probably is like, I would tell my younger self or a young person, know what it is that you want and know, like, ask that of your partner as well.

Walter: Early on.

Mickey: Yeah, early on, like how you said. Like that's, I mean, it's really important, and I think it's hard to know what you want, and it's hard to ask someone else, like, what do you want your life to look like? Because, like, you know, in this era, life is kind of infinite. You can kind of do a lot of things with your life. Like, why, why narrow it down so early? So that, that's something I would tell my younger self.

But then a question I would ask in the first few dates of talking to somebody… Wait, I had one and it's gone. Oh! I think I would ask them what kind of parent they would want to be.

Walter: Ooh, that's a good one.

Pugly: I do have a question as well that I would ask. And I haven't, I don't know to date if I've asked this on a first date or like first or whatever, third, whatever it is, um, but how do you feel about therapy?

Mickey: Ooh.

Walter: Ooh, that's good.

Mickey: Yeah, that is a good one.

Pugly: And then that leads to generally, are you in therapy?

Walter: Yeah.

Pugly: But yeah. Just: are you working on yourself or not?

Mickey: But I mean, you know…

Pugly: It doesn't necessarily guarantee. I know what you mean because we're on the same page here.

Mickey: We’re on the same page here, yeah, because people will be like, you know, I'm really working on myself. I'm like healing. Actually, it’s so funny, we mentioned that last episode about people who are “healing” but can be so mean.

Pugly: Did we?

Mickey: Yeah, we did.

Pugly: I don’t recall.

Mickey: I'll remind you later.

Walter: But also, like with how… Yes, I'm so happy now that a lot of people are going for therapy, but my thing is like with how… Sometimes it is just very… The term healing is becoming oversaturated. Like, what does healing look like for you? What is that?

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: Well, that's a follow up question then. Tell me like what—I mean, maybe not on a first date but like eventually into the thing, like, like, like what do you guys explore in your therapy? Whatever.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: Like once you've gotten to know them more deeply.

Mickey: So, like, what kind of answers would give you red flags to that question?

Walter: Like with healing?

Mickey: Or just like healing and therapy?

Walter: Um… 

Mickey: Or green flags.

Pugly: Red flags would be, “I'm trying to get over my ex.” [laughs]

Mickey: [laughs]

Walter: [laughs] So why are you here?

Pugly: Exactly. Exactly. That's the red flag you need to leave. Green flags, like…

Mickey: That can't be your only red flag. Give me something that's not so specific.

Pugly: Well, that was the one that came to mind because of—

Mickey: Yeah, yeah.

Walter: And to be honest, I think I won't say it’s a beige flag, it is a red flag. I think if let's say you're trying to heal from something and there is no timeline for healing, but I think if you and your therapist have been working on the same thing for such a long, long time—

Pugly: Maybe it's a deep-rooted issue that requires a lot of work.

Walter: Yes. And see how that will affect me as your partner too.

Mickey: Yeah. Or maybe you're not really like handling it, like—

Walter: Properly, yeah.

Pugly: Ooh! Another question I have is tell me about how your last relationship ended.

Walter: Ooh, that’s a good one.

Pugly: And I want to hear too that they had some involvement in it.

Walter: Yes. I've, I've heard that.

Pugly: Yeah. You agree?

Mickey: What does that mean?

Pugly: Like, I want to hear that they're not blaming, they're not saying, “Oh my crazy a** ex.”

Mickey: Yeah. Oh yeah, when you hear that, run.

Pugly: Yeah.

Walter: Like, asking them, asking them that question and then maybe following it up with what have you contributed to that ending?

Pugly: Mhm.

Mickey: Mhm.

Pugly: And how have you worked on that issue since then?

Walter: Yeah. That's a very good one, Flippy. You know, also another thing.

Pugly: Thank you, Walter.

Walter: You're welcome. Another one that I think a lot about is what have you learned from your parents' relationship?

Mickey: Ooh, that's good, actually.

Walter: You know, like, whether conflict management, um, uh, expressing yourself, all those things… Like what have you, you know, how is your parents’ relationship going to affect your future relationship? What have you learned from it and all that? Because I do feel like in some, in some shape or form, you either, you know, subconsciously mimic those relationships or in a way, we try to avoid a lot of the things we've experienced by doing the wrong things still. Hence the trauma continues. And then, I think one thing too, I'll think a lot about is what are the things that I'm willing to tolerate from my partner? Because I think any long-term relationship, that person will never be the same person. Hence, you will not be the same person from the first day that y'all have met each other, if that makes sense, y'all are going to continue to grow and change as people.

Mickey: Mhm.

Pugly: Mhm.

Walter: And I think, but what's the baseline of… I'm going to be okay with this, no matter how much my partner has changed.

Pugly: Yeah. 

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: I think that a lot about just random tragic accidents that cause major disability and things like that. Like, are you willing to tolerate those kinds of major life changes that could just dramatically change overnight?

Walter: Yeah.

Pugly: Yeah.

Walter: Like you being a caregiver, for instance.

Pugly: Right, right.

Walter: Ooh.

Pugly: Yeah, that's a big one for me. It's like a big thing that's scary about relationships to me.

Mickey: Commitment? [laughs] I mean, that is commitment. You're like through sickness and in health, or in sickness and health, whatever.

Pugly: But like some sicknesses are different than others.

Mickey: Obviously, yeah.

Walter: Mhm.

Mickey: Yeah. I think also for all of these questions that we're wanting to ask, just the way they answer to me is very indicative of the type of partner they'll be, so like, if they're kind of like, “I don't know, like, you know, I guess I would do this,” but like, they don't really want to talk about things deeply, or they don't wanna explore like, like my question was how, what kind of parent do you wanna be? You asked about, um…

Pugly: Therapy.

Mickey: Therapy. And then you said about parents, like, what, what has that taught you? And, like, if they're kind of just like, “Oh, my parents are just, like, you know, they hate each other” or whatever and, like, they're not very, what's the word? Reflective or insightful?

Pugly: On a first date though?

Mickey: I'm not talking about first date. But, like, if they're just not reflective or insightful in general, I feel like that's a red flag because, like—

Pugly: It means they haven't been to therapy, probably.

Mickey: Yeah. But even if they have, like, how can you process things and grow if you are just, like, very shallow? 

Pugly: Nonchalantly handling life?

Mickey: Very shallow, yeah. You're just kind of like, uh, it's bad, I'm gonna probably, I'll try not to do that. Like, okay, why is it bad? How are you going to avoid doing that? How are you going to be better? Why haven't you gone to therapy? What do you mean you just go to talk about, like, how much you hate, I don't know, school or whatever? You know? Like, what are you getting out of, like, basically reasons. They can't back up what they're saying. I feel like that's like someone who's not ready to be in a relationship of, of that type of level and commitment.

Pugly: I mean, yes, I think people should process things deeply. I don't think they have to have an answer to every one of these questions we've asked, but—

Mickey: No, but I feel like if people are like, “That's just how I am,” you know, or like things like that.

Pugly: Yeah, that phrase f***ing gets on my nerves.

Mickey: Yeah. Me too.

Pugly: That's just how I am.

Mickey: I think that this is a, this is a good place to wrap it up.

Walter: Yes.

Pugly: Alright, how should we wrap it up?

Mickey: Um, I want to personally thank Walter for being here with me.

Pugly: Walter!

Mickey: Yeah, being here with me and with…

Walter: Flippy.

Mickey: Filapia. 

Pugly: We need you here every time so she can remember my name.

Walter: Flippy.

Mickey: Flippy, Flippy.

Pugly: Say my name, say my name…

Mickey: When no one is around. [laughs] When Walter is around you.

Pugly: When Walter is around you…

Walter: Say baby I love you.

Mickey: Well, this has been Penguini.

Pugly: This has been Flippy.

Walter: And this has been Walter. It will always be Walter.

Mickey: Always and forever. Thank you so much, Walter, for coming and joining us. We had such a good time with you, as always.

Walter: Thank you for having me.

Pugly: Enjoyed it, enjoyed it.

Mickey: Alright, bye guys.

Pugly: Bye guys.

[Theme song]