Mickey: Welcome back to Secondhand Confessions. These are your hosts, Mickey.

Pugly: Pugly.

Poppy: And Poppy Seed.

Mickey: Woohoo. We're excited to be back for another episode. I've honestly been very excited. We had a lull in our, like, over the summer, I guess, we were kind of busy, and now that we are back into it, I'm like every time we finish one, I'm, I'm looking forward to the next one already, so…

Pugly: Yeah, I'm really glad that this has been a weekly occurrence for us lately. It's been kind of an enjoyable little shindig.

Mickey: Mhm. So, what do we, what do you have for us today?

Pugly: We have a first story which is titled “I (26F) am an escort, and I am falling in love with one of my clients (39M).”

Poppy: Girl, it doesn't take a smart person to know that you should not mix business with pleasure, sweetie.

Mickey: The title alone, eh, it’s not gonna end well. It's just not gonna end well.

Poppy: What’s the age again?

Pugly: She is 26. He is 39. So there is a bit of a gap.

Poppy: He's probably married with kids, that's all I'm gonna say.

Mickey: Yeah. Yeah.

Pugly: Alrighty. Well, this was posted November 10th, 2019. She says: If you are going to pass judgment on my profession, please don't. If you are going to tell me I am being exploited, please don't. I am not here for that.

I took on this client about a year ago. I was immediately struck with how handsome he was. As I got to know him, he showed himself to be a kind, sweet, charismatic, utterly brilliant person. He is always gentle. I never had to enforce any boundaries with him. 

Over the last year, I have come to look forward to visits with him above any of my other clients. If there is a scheduling conflict, I will give him the priority. Lately, I have been more intimate with him than my other clients— cuddles, kissing hugs and other things I don't do with my other clients. I love my overnights with him. We have long, deep talks about everything. We have a lot of shared interests, and we just get along really well. I feel very safe with him. I am falling in love with him.

It's never happened to me before. I have always kept emotions separate from my work, but I can't help it with him. I will spend time with him I don't bill him for. I spend extra time with him and just love to be with him. I've been spending time with him casually, going on… dates, I guess, for lack of a better word that I'm not billing for either, and the lines are starting to become very blurry.

I don't know what to do. I think I want to move the relationship from professional to personal (truth is, it’s already becoming personal to me), but I can't imagine he would be okay with my work if I was his girlfriend. I'm afraid of being rejected by him and ruining our work relationship. I think I would give this up to be with him, but that presents a whole new set of problems for me in finding a new career.

I don't know what to do. Do I go for it? Risk rejection and ruining our professional relationship? Do I give up my career for him if he says yes? I don't think I could continue this if I was with him personally. Do I just keep silent and continue our relationship as is, or do I drop him as a client altogether? I was never looking for a guy to “save me,” but I can’t help what I’m feeling for him.

Mickey: Oh, man, this is a tough one.

Poppy: So, she's billing him sometimes and not billing him others? “Oh, you know, I'll do this sexual favor for you, but if we're going out to dinner, I won't, I won't charge you for that,” you know?

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: Ugh… I think she should tell him.

Pugly: Okay. And what do you think would come of that?

Poppy: There's a big chance that he is not going to take her serious because he knows what she does. And even if she stopped doing it, it would still, it would probably still bother him, just, I mean, this is just the reality. I'm not going to try to sugar coat it, like, uh, you know, you've chosen to be in the sex industry, whether you're an actor or, you know, buddy. I don't know. [laughs]

Pugly: [laughs]Companion.

Poppy: Little, a little companion with the Venmo, I don't know.

Mickey: [laughs] buddy.

Poppy: Um, but if he says no, she loses him, okay? But she can still continue to do her job if she cares to because it seems like she's worried about, how else am I gonna make money?

Mickey: Yeah. Yeah. How long has she been doing this again?

Pugly: She didn't say.

Mickey: Mmm… It's, it's like, is this a career for her or, like, you know, just for now? Because if it's just for now, then, you know, I would tell her, like, okay, yeah, maybe… Because, yeah, tell him, because also he's, he's there doing all those things with her. It's like the nature of their professional relationship is kind of blurred. It's like, also personal. Like, he's paying her to have a personal relationship with him. Which is weird because it's, it's still, she has to be both personal and professional with him. And…

Poppy: Well… Yeah. Yeah.

Mickey: Like it, I mean, that doesn't necessarily mean he has feelings for her, but it definitely… We already know he enjoys spending time with her, and we already know, that, like, he likes not just like having sex with her but going out with her, going on dates, like, doing all the other stuff. So, like, I think it's a good enough assumption to be like, you know, I, I think he feels the same way about me, but that's the weird part is that she never said that. She never…

Pugly: She kind of alluded to it though with the fact that, you know, he is willing to go on “dates,” as she calls them.

Mickey: Yeah. And then the fact that he's not saying like, “Well, how, how much do I owe you for this date or whatever?” He's not bringing it up either. Or maybe he thinks the payment is, like, paying for her meal or something?

Pugly: Yeah. It's a less direct form of payment, I guess.

Mickey: How much do people pay for buddies?

Pugly: I think it probably varies. There's different quality levels here, I'm sure.

Poppy: Yes. Yes. It’s the certain code you're billing and the duration of the code.

Pugly: [laughs]

Mickey: And your resume.

Poppy: Yes. But, you know, if he liked spending time with her, like, if they're doing things other than like, you know, sex—

Pugly: Like a legit companion.

Poppy: Yeah. Why is he, why did he not say, like—

Pugly: “I wanna push this further”?

Poppy: Yeah. Like, “Maybe we could do this, and I don't pay you at all.” But I still think it's so weird that she…

Pugly: [laughs] “Maybe you could, uh, work for free.”

Mickey: [laughs]

Poppy: I mean, not for free, but I mean, you know, just why are you still taking money from him?

Mickey: Mhm.

Pugly: I guess because their initial form of relationship was this professional relationship that they had. So, it's hard to change the nature of a relationship once you've initiated in a certain way.

Mickey: I wonder if she, because she said she's afraid to lose him as a client. I wonder if she means that, like, literally as a client, like, financially, she doesn't wanna lose a client, or like, she just doesn't wanna be rejected, and even if he still keeps seeing her, she knows, like, he doesn't feel the same way about her. I wonder what she means by that.

Pugly: Yeah… She does have an edit here. The edit is very short. She says: I know why he's single. His wife died in an accident three years ago.

Mickey: Yikes. 

Poppy: He's, oh… He probably, like, found her because he was lonely.

Pugly: Mhm.

Poppy: I’m just gonna assume he's a nice guy. [laughs] 

Pugly: [laughs] 

Mickey: [laughs]

Poppy: I want him to be a nice guy.

Pugly: He did, I mean, she did say that he was like, not pushing her boundaries and stuff, and he was being respectful of her, which I think in this line of work, I'm sure that's a rarity.

Mickey: Yeah. I wonder if, like, the reason he sought out an escort was that it's like, because he's not ready for a real relationship after his wife dies.

Pugly: Could be.

Mickey: Because like, maybe, because I was wondering why didn't he just, like, go dating? I mean, he's gotten married before; it's not like he doesn't know how to do that. But like, I feel like he sought out an escort for that very purpose. Like, he's not ready for something serious. So that's… Now that makes me fear for her. Maybe he's, he wouldn't reject her but just reject the idea of a relationship?

Mickey: Maybe it wasn't because he's not ready to be serious. It could be. Like, that's a good point. It could also be that maybe he just like, didn't know where to look?

Pugly: I mean, he knows avenues to date if he wanted to date.

Mickey: But he's also 39 though. So like maybe when he got married to his like, late wife, things were different and he doesn't know how to do all this dating app stuff.

Pugly: That's true. Dating apps are not for everybody, and they're also difficult to navigate.

Poppy: They're really not. Yeah.

Pugly: She did have another edit. Edit 2: I can't believe how many responses this post has gotten. I am going for it. I'll tell him this week. Now to figure out how. Lots had asked if I had a backup. I do.

I don't know what that means, but I'm excited for her that she's going for it.

Mickey: Mhm. How would you guys do it? How would you guys tell her to do it?

Pugly: Mmm… I would just be straight up with him. Be like, “Look, I know that our relationship started in a professional capacity. I have noticed myself feeling more personal feelings for you, and I'm wondering if that's reciprocated.” Like, I would just be direct about it.

Poppy: Yeah, I guess, yeah. Yours sounded very well put together and professional. I would just be like, “I think I like you more than just working, and I want to, like, explore this without, like, the money involved, if you would be interested in that because, like, obviously I am. Are you, are you down to try, like, dating and just kind of changing the theme of our relationship?”

Pugly: The theme, ooh. I like it.

Mickey: I would tell her to say, “What are we?”

Poppy: Oh.

Mickey: And then he could say, “We're buddies.”

Pugly: “We're buddies.” [laughs]

Mickey: No, I think I would just say, like, you know, “I, I really like spending time with you, and it feels like more than just work.” I think that's exactly what you just said, Poppy. But I wouldn't, if I were her, I wouldn't immediately promise him anything about I'm gonna quit my job for you or anything because I don't know, like—

Pugly: Because you don't know how it's gonna go.

Mickey: Yeah. And not, I don't mean, like, she shouldn't quit her job immediately—obviously she shouldn't—but even just to say that she would, I don't want her to even do that because I want her to see what he says about it.

Pugly: Test the waters.

Mickey: Yeah, test the waters. [laughs]

Poppy: It would be better for him to bring it up.

Pugly: It would, but I guess she's decided she's going to be the initiator here.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: Edit 3: I'm about to leave for lunch with him. I'm not going to bring it up yet, but I do intend to ask him if he ever sees himself getting married again. Thanks for all the support. I didn't expect to see this much support.

Mickey: Oh, that's a good way of bringing it up.

Pugly: Yeah, that's an interesting tactic.

Mickey: I think it's a good way of understanding why he's, you know, why is he seeing an escort? Does he actually want another future relationship?

Pugly: I mean, if she feels that comfortable with him, it's like the fact that she does feel this comfortable enough to ask that question indicates that she feels comfortable enough talking about the fact that he's lost his significant other—somebody that was really important to him. If they really are on that level of intimacy and connectedness, I feel like this could go somewhere.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: If she feels that comfortable with him.

Mickey: Or she's just a Libra.

Pugly: Yeah. Or… whatever that means. Yeah.

Mickey: [laughs]

Poppy: I don't think I would be like, “Would you get married again?” I think I would just straight up be like, this is about us, like, and then, like, if he entertains the idea of changing, like, the relationship and whatnot, then, then we could have the discussion. Like, so would you like to get married?

Pugly: Yeah. I think marriage is pushing it a little far at this stage when you haven't even confirmed that he likes you in the same way you like him.

Mickey: Or maybe like, “How has your dating life been since your wife passed?” or something, you know, just something like that.

Pugly: Yeah. “How's your dating life these days?”

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: Well, she says: Lunch was nice. We had a good time. I did ask him if he felt like he could ever be married again. He said three years ago, the answer would be a hard no, but now he wasn't so sure. Then he asked me if I ever saw myself getting married, and I had a similar answer. I asked him if he wanted to come to dinner at my place tonight. Not work, personal. He said he’d like that. I'm going for it.

Mickey: Oh my gosh. Modern day love story.

Pugly: Maybe this is her Pretty Woman story.

Mickey: Lol. So is there an update about if they got together?

Pugly: Final update: Well, I truly didn't expect this post to get the reception it did. I didn't think this many people would care and become so invested in my story.

Mickey: This part of an update, sorry. This part of Reddit updates reminds me of like when actors go up to receive an award, like an Oscar, and they're like, “I would like to thank my mother, my butler, my s*** wiper.” [laughs]

Pugly: I really didn't expect all the support I got. I was flooded with comments, PMs, and chat requests. Some were about what I expected: accusations of gold digger and “can't turn a hoe into a housewife”-type comments. That's really the response I expected.

What I didn't expect were the thousands of comments and messages of support. You were all right in that I did know what I really wanted. I did know what my heart was telling me, but seeing thousands of people tell me to go for it was the push I needed to not waste any more time. Shoot your shot, right?

I'd like to address a few things before I get into the update. A few people mentioned the story about his wife might be fake and he’s secretly married. I was pretty sure he wasn't married. I did call-outs to his home, and my married clients NEVER take me to their home, always a hotel. But I was regularly in his home. I saw the pictures of her around the house. I know she was real.

How can I trust a guy who uses escorts? Well, this is a silly thing to judge him on considering what I do. I can't imagine judging a man for using my service. I was his first too, and unless he's a good actor, I know the awkwardness of a first timer, and he was definitely awkward when we first met. I never asked him if he started seeing other escorts because frankly, it's none of my business. 

I should wait for him to approach me. Unfortunately, this probably wouldn't work as the lines became blurred. I did tell him about a few clients who became overly possessive, obsessive, and jealous that I had to drop. I am sure he thought the same would happen to him if he tried to tell me he wanted a personal relationship. I had to be the one to make this move.

Do I want this forever? / Do I really want to give it up? Different variations on this theme of leaving the biz—some in favor, some against. Bottom line is: I don't think I see myself doing this into my 30s. It used to be fun and exciting, but lately it hasn't been. It just feels like work now, and the only meets I look forward to anymore are the ones with him. I also don't feel good about the idea of being committed to him but still seeing clients. I heard from a lot of other sex workers and clients who were able to make that arrangement work, but I just can't. Even if he would be okay with it, I just can’t.

Another add-on to this is a friend of mine who has never been crazy about what I do. She's given me a standing offer to go to work with her company on the sales team. A lot of people suggested we try going out as friends and doing things outside our “working relationship.” I imagine my comments answering this one were buried in the flood of comments, so I'll put it here. We have been. For some time now. We meet for lunches and dinners. We go to the movies and make little trips to sites around where we live. We also text throughout the week.

Okay, onto the update. 

Mickey: They’re already dating.

Pugly: Yeah! I think I left off yesterday that we had met for lunch. This was sort of a normal thing for us lately, and we had a nice chat. I posed to him the question of if he ever saw himself falling in love and marrying again. He said after his wife died, he didn't think it would be possible, but now he thinks he might be able to with the right person. Then he followed up with a question about if I would ever think about leaving the biz and getting married, and I sort of answered the same: with the right person, followed by a pointed stare.

He had to go back to work by this point, and I invited him to my home for dinner. This was a first. He has never been to my home. I don't bring clients back there, only friends. I hope that sent a strong signal to him.

I went back home and started getting ready. I had to go shopping for some things and get the place ready to have a guest over. I called my friend up. She knows about this guy and has been on the same page as Reddit, pushing me to make a move and settle down into something more normal. I told her about the Reddit post and said I was making the jump. I also let her know I wanted to take her up on her offer.

I called up my upcoming appointments and canceled. I said something had come up, and I wouldn't be available. I'm out. I'm done regardless of what happened with him. Plus, now that I am realizing I want to be in a relationship, and I can't separate sex from my feelings like I thought, it’s time to call it.

This isn't what I want anymore. This choice was for me, not him. Even if things didn't work out with him, I realized I really did want to be in a committed relationship with someone.

One thing that people mentioned was the idea that he could turn violent when I told him. I honestly didn't believe he would. But I asked my friend to call and check on me just in case. She knows the drill. We have safe and emergency words set up, and we have a plan for if she gets no response from me at all.

I got my shopping done and got dinner going, set the place up nice and romantic, and got myself dolled up nice and sexy, and got ready to have him over. He came by at around 7:00 PM. He had flowers for me and a bottle of wine. I invited him.

He said he wasn't sure if he should bring payment or not and just did. I told him that wasn't necessary; he wasn't here as a client; I don't bring clients to my home. I was really hoping he was getting the hint. 

Dinner was going nicely. We had our usual rapport, but I could tell he was a little perplexed about what this was all about, so I put on my big girl panties, gathered my courage, and “shoot my shot,” as you all put it. 

I told him I was dropping him as a client. He looked surprised and hurt. He wanted to know why. What did he do wrong? Did something happen? I assured him it wasn't about him; I was leaving the biz and dropped all my clients. I told him about the job I took, and he wished me good luck. He said I was attractive and charming, and he was sure I would do well in sales. He said he was going to miss me.

I took a deep breath and said, “You don't have to miss me if you don't want to.” And then I spilled it: he was the only client I brought home to tell in person. I laid it all out. All the things I mentioned in the post, how I felt about him, and how I didn't want be his escort anymore. I wanted to be his girlfriend.

I said I understand he paid me to leave and not stick around, and now I was asking to stick around, and I would understand if he didn't want to continue on. He said, “Who told you that?” That he paid me to keep coming back, not to leave.

He said he felt it too, but he wasn't sure if it was appropriate to ask me that. He was still hurt over his wife and that he wasn't even sure if he was ready, but that some of the best things in his life, he started when he wasn't even sure if he was ready.

He asked me if I was okay with being with someone who was still hurting over his ex. I told him I could work with it, and that I wasn't trying to replace her. We kissed. I led him into my bedroom, and we made love. 

We spent some time after in each other's arms talking about what comes next. He offered to help me make the transition, but I told him I wanted to try and do this on my own and not rely on him. I appreciated his offer, and if I needed the help, I would ask, but I need to try on my own at first. He respected that.

I told him that things would change now. As his girlfriend, I would have expectations of him I never had as an escort. He was okay with that. I told him I never asked cared if he saw other women before, but now I wanted monogamy. I would give it, and I wanted it in return, so if he was seeing other escorts, that would have to end. And I reminded him I dropped my clients. He said that wasn't a problem; I was the only one.

He spent the night with me and left this morning. Where is this going to lead us next? I have no idea. Maybe I am making a huge mistake. Maybe this was fate. Maybe this was God working in mysterious ways. Maybe we're just two lost and lonely souls tossed around by the stormy seas of life that managed to find each other and cling to each other. Fate, fairy tale, or fluke, we are going to see where this leads us next, and we're doing it together.

I'm excited, elated and terrified all at once. My whole life has drastically changed in just a day. I didn't intend to move this fast, but once this train started rolling, it seemed like there was no stopping it. 

To everyone who said I was a worthless w**** who could never be loved, f*** you too. To everyone who expressed concern, thank you. Maybe this is a mistake, but I have to find out. To everyone who encouraged me to go for it, thank you. You were right. Without the thousands of responses to go for it, I would have languished in that limbo for a lot longer.

As a final thought, I want to say that this isn't normal. If you see sex workers, please don't think this is the norm and that the women you see may also fall in love with you. While I'm sure that happens, and I've heard from others who are in similar positions to mine, it's really not the norm. If you're considering sex work because you think you can find Prince Charming, know this outcome is very unusual.

Oh, and I hated Pretty Woman, by the way. I never thought it would be me one day.

Mickey: [chuckles]Oh my God! A happy ending.

Poppy: I’m really happy for her.

Mickey: Aww.

Poppy: I hope it ends well.

Mickey: Yeah. And he's so sweet. Like, he really was, like, not crossing the boundary because he was trying to respect her.

Pugly: Mhm. I love that he brought her flowers.

Mickey: Yeah, and wine. He's a good man, Savannah. [laughs]

Poppy: A good man.

Mickey: The only thing I wonder is… how is their dynamic gonna change now that, like, it's a, like a personal relationship only? Because, like, for example, if you are friends with someone and then you become lovers, it's like personal to personal, but they're going from professional to personal. So, in any professional relationship you hold a lot of yourself in, like, you don't, at work, you're not your full self.

Pugly: Yeah.

Mickey: So I wonder how their dynamic will change now that, like, they're not, there’s like no holds.

Poppy: It may be like a new page for them, where it's like some sort of like honeymoon phase because even though they've been seeing each other already, it's like, completely different now.

Mickey: Mhm.

Poppy: First of all, there's no money involved anymore. Even though he brought, he brought money with him to her house because he just wasn't sure it's all just gonna be, like, real relationship now, and I just feel like that's going to, it may make it feel like it's just starting over.

Pugly: Yeah.

Poppy: And they sort of were friends because, like, although they were having business affairs, they still got along, and they still, like, enjoyed each other's company. The fact that she kept him as a client and would see him multiple times means she also enjoyed, like, just… I mean, I think an escort is like, not just sex. Like, I think they literally actually want someone to go on a date with and like, do things with and maybe travel with and stuff like that.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: It really is a companionship.

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: Yeah, it's a happy ending at the end, no pun intended. 

Pugly: [laughs]

Poppy: Every time they get together.

Pugly: Nice one.

Mikcey: But are you saying that you think that because like sex work is inherently like, it's like, okay, this is how you would be as a companion, so they kind of already know—like it's not like that much of a shift?

Mickey: Uh, for this case, maybe not, but for others, I don't feel like… I don't know, I imagine it as like the actual worker not really being invested in, like, getting to know them or anything like that. Like, I think it's just like, strictly business, like you show up, you look hot, you know, you, like, do whatever they want to do, have sex, and then you get paid, and that's it. Like, I don't think—the person who's getting paid—I don't think they're really, like… It's just like showing up for your shift at work, you know? You can be enthusiastic some days and be in a good mood, but at the end of the day, like, you're just trying to get—

Pugly: Paid.

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: Yeah.

Pugly: It's work.

Poppy: It's work.

Mickey: What did you think, Pugly?

Pugly: I felt like this was a really heartwarming tale. A modern love story, like I think you mentioned earlier.

Mickey: Well, YompyDoo says: I'm married to a woman who I met in similar circumstances. We took it very slow at first because it takes a while to build trust outside of the artificial elements of a sex work relationship. He may be unwilling to ask you for your details, as he thinks it's inappropriate and doesn't want to offend you or risk spoiling the existing relationship.

If he's a realist, he understands the nature of the work and respects you as a person enough to understand your feelings. From my point of view, I liked her a lot and felt there was a connection, but I wouldn't have offered her my number. She asked if she could give me her number, and I thought about it and felt there would be no harm in it—just talking. I wondered if she was going to hit me up for money, but at the same time, she wondered if I would just be after easy sex.

Then we just had lovely normal conversations. I never considered it as “saving her,” although it was a little tough at first to think about her work. We talked it over, and she worked for a while before quitting and finding some other work, as she was finalizing some payments on things. The biggest issue would have been keeping it all a secret from family and friends if she had remained working. 

It's a lovely relationship, and we see a long future ahead. I hope it all ends up working out for you too.

Mickey: Aww, they're not alone.

Pugly: It sounded like she had a lot of confidants that expressed that they had similar circumstances, so… It sounds like the story is maybe not as unusual as we might have expected.

Mickey: Mhm.

Pugly: But she did also warn that don't expect your sex worker to reciprocate your feelings if you develop them.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: So…

Poppy: It takes a man with real like confidence to be okay with something like this. Or not even be okay with it, but just like look past it and like it's not a whole dealbreaker for him—

Mickey: Mhm.

Poppy: You know, with this, this story and then other people that are commenting that said that they went through a similar situation.

Mickey: I think it takes a very secure person.

Pugly: Thank you.

Mickey: And… [laughs]

Pugly: [laughs]

Mickey: A lot of people, a lot of people especially men, especially men, are like, I don't know, I think they think that, that what their wife does or their girlfriend or their whatever woman, partner, like, reflects on them, and to a certain degree it does, but it's like, it's also just her work. It takes a lot of trust and security in yourself.

Pugly: But I think you have to consider the reasons that someone's doing the sex work or the OnlyFans or the whatever kind of whatever it is because sometimes people's motivations are for attention and like validation and that's really not a healthy place to start that kind of line of work in. 

Mickey: No, not at all.

Pugly: It's a complicated topic, I guess. But she does have an update.

Mickey: Oh, okay, go ahead.

Pugly: This was posted November 29th, 2019, which was about 10 days later. She says: So I know it hasn't been that long since my first post, but one of the things some people had brought up was that I was a “fantasy” to him, and if things ever became “real,” the fantasy would be over and the “real” him would show up. Well, I am happy to say no abusive, misogynistic, malignant, nefarious side of him has as yet been revealed to me. He's very much still the same kind and wonderful man I fell in love with. 

Our relationship is changing and very much for the better. There's no longer any fear between us. We can both be honest about how we feel about each other without the other being scared we were crossing the lines. Plus, now that I am out of the biz, my nights and weekends are much freer than they previously were, and that's time I'm spending with him now that otherwise I would have spent working. It's really nice to be able to see him whenever I want and not have to worry about other client bookings.

We were able to get away for the weekend together. I feel like a teenager in love. He's always doing sweet little things for me. Love notes or flowers and chocolates.

This next part is something that happened while the lines were still blurred between us, but it's an example of what a thoughtful person he is. We were in the mall together. He had to get some fancy clothes for a work function, and we were at Neiman Marcus. While we were there, I saw a beautiful and expensive Carolina Herrera dress I fell in love with. I didn't mention it to him, but he must have noticed me ogling the dress and talking about it with the sales lady. 

Well, the next time we met, he had a gift for me: that dress. Like I said, he noticed. I didn't tell him or ask him for it; he just picked up on it and got it for me. I don't need gifts of expensive designer dresses or jewelry from him, but it's nice to know I have a partner who really listens and notices things and acts on it. Honestly, I would be just as happy if it had been a pair of $15 sweats from Target that I really liked. It's really the thought that counts. Take a hint, guys. Your ladies will appreciate it if you notice what they like and act on it without being told. It makes us special and like you really care enough to pay attention.

I've been spending a lot of time at his house. I'm there all the time now and spend the night on a regular basis, so much so that he got me my own toothbrush and products for me to keep in his bathroom. I know it's early days yet, but we were talking about me moving in with him when my lease expires.

His family alternates who hosts Thanksgiving every year, and this year was his turn. So while the lines were still blurred, he had invited me to come by to Thanksgiving with his family and friends. I wasn't sure at the time because I still didn't know where I was going, but after we hooked up and made it official, it was a no-brainer that I would go. We talked about how he would introduce me and how we would say we met if asked. We agreed we would tell people we met on an online dating site. It's not that far from the truth. He first contacted me through an ad I had up on a “dating site.”

So I made something to bring and then headed to his house early so I could help him in the kitchen. We both enjoy cooking, so it was fun to work together in the kitchen. He started introducing me to everyone as his girlfriend and I don't know, hearing that just made it so real and so official, like this was really happening. I had little hearts floating around me all day.

His family was thrilled to see him move on, and his brother later pulled me aside and thanked me for making his brother happy again. That he hadn't seen his brother smile like that since his late wife passed, and he knew it was because of me. I had to keep the tears from smudging my mascara and eyeliner.

Here's the thing: I know he hasn't entirely moved on yet. I don't want to push him or rush him. I know he loved her for years, and she was taken from him. I know I can't ever fully replace her, and she will always have a place in his heart. Her clothes are still in his closet. He still has all her stuff. Is it wrong that I want his whole heart though? How much time do I give him? I agreed when this started to be patient with him, because he was honest with me about not being over her death, but still loved me and wanted to move forward with me. I know he feels guilty at times, like he is dishonoring her memory.

I think Thanksgiving helped because he saw how his family positively responded to him having someone new in his life. I just want him to heal and be happy and be able to be happy with me and not feel like he's cheating on her. Is there anything I can do to help him with that, or is it best if I just leave it alone and let him come to terms with that on his own?

Mickey: I'm going to cry.

Poppy: First of all, he's wealthy.

Mickey: Yes! Carolina Herrera? Excuse me? The way she name dropped that, like, “Yeah, like I would just as well have gotten a pair of sweatpants.” Okay, b****.

Poppy: Yeah. Okay. The fact that he was in Neiman Marcus looking for just like—

Mickey: Yes! His own clothes. 

Poppy: They’ve got money.

Mickey: That is so sexy. That is so sexy. He's just buying clothes for himself.

Pugly: [laughs]

Mickey: I'm sorry.

Pugly: “He is buying clothes for himself.”

Poppy: [laughs]

Mickey: My standards at this point are just… And she didn't even say she liked it. She just looked at it. Oh my God. That's a good man, Savannah. And he, he set up the toothbrush and s*** before she got there like—

Poppy: That was very sweet. That was very sweet.

Mickey: Oh my God, I almost cried. I almost cried. And then his brother saying, “This is the first time I've seen him happy in a long time.” Wrap it up. This is it. But we do need to talk about… the dead wife—

Poppy: The clothes in the closet. I think that she should still give him time to process. The fact that she met his family, that's huge. Now that he is like fully processing that he's in an actual relationship with somebody since his wife passed and that may accelerate some things, you know? Like now he's probably going to be like, okay, well, I got her a toothbrush, she's sleeping here every night, she's going to move in when her lease is over, I'm gonna have to make room in the closet. So like, I think he's fully aware of what's going on. He seems to be very like, respectful of her feelings, so I don't think he's gonna f*** this up, and he told her from the beginning, “Can you please be patient with me?”, that I'm still healing over her. And the fact that he loved her that much? I don't know, we're not in the shoe, we're not in the shoes, we're not in these shoes. But I like this guy.

Mickey: I know.

Poppy: I think she should give him a chance, and I think that she should be patient with him, not judge him for it because he did not judge her at all.

Pugly: I agree.

Mickey: Yeah. I think she's starting to think that it's gonna eventually bother her if he doesn't move on at all. And I mean, honestly, if I were her, me too, if he doesn't move on and he, you know, is still thinking about his wife when we're dating, like, after I've given him some time, you know? So I think what I would do is like, I would set a date of like, what? A month or two months of dating or whatever, and then after that date passes, if I don't feel like he's like progressing, like he's moving on and stuff, I would bring it up with him and I would say like, you know, “I've really loved our time together, and I wanna keep moving this forward, like you're everything I want, blah, blah, blah… And I, I really want to be patient with you. I'm not trying to rush you. But can you tell me where you're at?” 

Like, it's just like a check-in. And then, after they do the check-in, if he's still, like, if he's still like, just as not over his wife as he was before, I think it's very fair of her to ask that he, like, find some kind of outlet like—

Pugly: Grief counseling?

Mickey: Grief counseling or therapy or whatever.

Pugly: Yeah, I don't know why she didn't make that a condition of her pursuing this relationship in a personal manner in the first place, because it sounded like she was a little bothered by this this entire time.

Mickey: She did a great job—sorry to interrupt you—but she did a great job when they officially started dating of saying, you know, “I'm gonna expect more of you now that I'm your girlfriend. I'm not just your escort anymore.”

Pugly: Yeah, that's true.

Mickey: I think that part wasn't so apparent because it wasn't a real personal relationship. Like she didn't, you know, feel the effects of him not being over his wife because it was just a casual whatever. But now that it's a full-fledged relationship, she's feeling those effects and that's okay, like, he asked her to be patient, and she said yes, and I think he's a great enough guy for her to wait a little bit.

Pugly: Yeah.

Mickey: For sure. But yeah, like, I think it's well within her right to ask, like, if in a few months he's like, not really budging on his widow or not widow, his, his dead wife, his late wife. I feel like it's well within her right to ask that he figure that out.

Poppy: I don't even think—I agree with you that she should give him some sort of like time, or maybe not even voice the time, like, just have it in her mind. I think the first thing would be the physical removal of the clothes out of the closet, because God knows how long he will remain in his head. From, from what we know right now from like the post, I don't think that she's like, emotionally being neglected.

Pugly: No.

Poppy: But it's weird to come over and see another woman's, like, clothes there. Like, I'm not even saying I would make you… I wouldn't make you do anything, but—

Pugly: That's probably a very valuable closet.

Mickey: Oh yeah! I, I mean, I wouldn't put… I'm not saying, like, throw it away! 

Pugly: You're saying sell that s***!

Mickey: [laughs]

Poppy: Or just pack it up and, like—

Pugly: Store it somewhere.

Poppy: Exactly. Like, yeah, I'm not saying, like, give them away, throw them away, and they have to exit the home. But, like, let’s, like, show a little bit more courtesy to me. If I'm going to be the woman in your life now, like, I, no matter living or dead, I don't want to see another woman's clothes in your closet.

Pugly: Yeah.

Poppy: It's uncomfortable.

Mickey: It's like a physical manifestation of him not being over his dead wife, so, yeah.

Poppy: Exactly.

Pugly: I do think he probably needs to do some processing with a professional on this because it's, what been three years? Did I make that up, or is that the actual timeline here?

Mickey: No, it's been three years.

Pugly: Three years and he's not pursued any sort of, like real relationships in that time? It just makes me think he hasn't done a whole lot of, there's not been a lot of progress on the, on the grief front, if he's still holding on to the physical reminders of her.

Mickey: Yeah. I mean, God, a spouse passing must be such a difficult thing. I can't even imagine.

Poppy: I would move.

Pugly: Yeah.

Mickey: Kind of like, okay, this is someone you said, okay, I'm going to marry you and we're going to be together forever. Literally until I die, we're going to be together. And then they die, they leave you. So, you already said it's us forever, but then they're gone, and it's not like they broke any of the, you know, of the vows of being together except for, like, till death do us part, you know?

Poppy: Yeah.

Mickey: So, it's hard to, like, want to move on, I think, when your spouse passes.

Poppy: Yeah. It's harder to move on from somebody when they've hurt you.

Pugly: It's harder?

Poppy: And there's like a bad… I'm sorry. It's easier. It's easier.

Pugly: Oh, oh, oh.Yes. Yes.

Mickey: It's, it's easier to, um… move on from somebody that's hurt you or, like a really bad memory or something, like, because it reminds you why you broke up, why you divorced, whatever it is. For somebody to just disappear and, like, the fact that he's still so attached, I'm assuming that it was like a love marriage, like, you're not going to be that emotionally attached to somebody's clothes if you don't, like, really, really miss them.

Mickey: Yeah. And, and she was like, she died in a car accident, so it was sudden. It wasn't, like, expected. It wasn't an illness, so, I don't know. That definitely, I think, you know, warrants a professional. Or at least, like, very close family to talk about it with. That's the thing, like, it's hard to talk about grief with people you know, because it's just so embarrassing. It's so embarrassing to be grieving. I, I don't know why we humans are embarrassed to like grieve, but it's embarrassing. So that's why I think people like really need a professional sometimes. 

Poppy: Embarrassing and biased. I would like to talk to somebody and have them listen to me and they really have no background other than what I tell them.

Pugly: Because then you get to share your memories of the person and like your perception of them and what you're like grieving, your experience of it, of that relationship.

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: Yep.

Pugly: She did have a few edits on this post.

Mickey: Ooh!

Pugly: She said: To everyone with useful advice, thank you. I am sensing a theme here of patience, understanding, support, and letting him work through this without pushing it.

She edits again and says: Once again, thank you for the support and kind comments and thank you for the silvers, golds, and platinum. To the haters: Kiss my brown Latina a***. Oh wait, you need to pay for that, and I'm not taking any clients.

Poppy: [chuckles]

Mickey: [laughs]

Pugly: And then she edits again. She says: Again, thanks for all the love and support. What I have really taken away and what I will put into practice is to be patient; don't view her as competition; give him all the time he needs (whether that's one day or forever) to embrace her in her memory as an important part of my boyfriend's life; and that he can still love her and cherish her memory while giving me all he has to give now.

I think that's a good little summary.

Poppy: Yeah.

Mickey: That's so sweet. I'm glad she came to that conclusion.

Pugly: I think she learned through some of the help from Reddit, from the helpful Reddit comments that she received. It sounds like she got a lot of hate comments too, which is unfortunate.

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: People are so mean.

Mickey: I know! Um, I've seen quite a few TikToks (I think they're part of my algorithm permanently now) of people whose like, spouse died and then, or like left or something and then they found a new spouse who, like, make, you know, “makes it all worth it” or whatever. And the ones whose spouse has died and they've gotten remarried, for some reason, it's like, I don't know why this is part of my algorithm, but it's like they honor their late spouse, and it's so cute. It's like they talk about them together, like they help them through the grieving process. I feel like that's such a, like, that's a real partner, you know? 

Pugly: Yeah. Yeah.

Mickey: Because it's not about them. It's under, it's about like how, like you are still not through this, and they just want to help you get through it. That's someone who really knows how to love someone and put themselves aside and their ego aside.

Pugly: One of the top comments says: My dad died when I was five. Him and my mom had been together for years and married in their twenties. He passed when my mom was 23. Now, she's 41. Thing is, she's still in love with him. She's married now to a great guy, but she's still in love with my dad. 

Whenever we see home videos of when me and my sister were kids, she bawls her eyes out. I don't think people ever really stopped being in love with their late partners. That's okay. You'll never replace her, and that's okay too.

The thing that'll change with time is the amount of hurt he has surrounding her. He'll be able to let that go more and more and fill it with love for you, if that makes sense.

Poppy: Yeah. Yeah.

Mickey: [whimpering]

Pugly: It really does pull at the heartstrings, doesn't it?

Mickey: I can't do this.

Poppy: Also, a lesson that everyone has something wrong with them. 

Mickey: [laughs]

Poppy: I mean, yeah, like we're like, oh my God, he's got money, he's so sweet to her, like I have a feeling he's hot. Like, I don't know. And boom, my wife is dead. My wife died, and I'm still in love with her. But that's okay. Like I just find that to be so sweet that somebody, you know, how can you still love somebody that much that's not here?

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: Yeah.That's a good point.

Poppy: That’s a real love. That's a real love.

Mickey: And the fact that he ha—he made that kind of like love before, like he had that kind of a relationship before, I think is a really attractive thing about him.

Pugly: Yeah.

Mickey: So it's like, yeah, like, okay, I have to share this space with his late wife kind of or, you know, I need to make my own space because, you know, he's capable of like being in a committed relationship and being very loving, you know?

Pugly: Yeah, I think like Poppy said, like, if he can miss someone that much, that's not here, how much can he love someone who is still here?

Mickey: Very true.

[Theme song]

Mickey: Alright, so this was a really fun wholesome episode for once. This was really nice to hear. Life is good. God is real. Period. Did you guys enjoy today's episode?

Pugly: Not at all.

Poppy: I loved it. I love a happy ending.

Mickey: [laughs]

Poppy: Oh, come on, you did, everyone did.

Pugly: I did. I did. I already said earlier that it was like tugging on the heartstrings and all that s***. All that sappy s***.

Mickey: Did you shed a tear? Be honest.

Pugly: I did not shed a tear. I, I didn't.

Mickey: [laughs] Okay. The rumors are that you shed a tear.

Pugly: I shed no tears.

Mickey: Thank you guys for listening as usual, and don't forget to rate us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Pugly: Mostly Apple Podcasts.

Mickey: [laughs] Mostly Apple Podcasts. For some reason, we were literally under attack. So please come to our rescue, listeners. We love you guys. Thank you for the sweet comments you guys send in. Um, and don't forget you can always send in a great story if you want us to read it on the podcast. Alright, we'll see you guys next time.

Pugly: Thanks, guys.

Poppy: Yeah!