Mickey: Well, do you wanna just dive in today?

Pugly: Sure. Do you wanna go first or do you want me to go first?

Mickey: Nah, you can go first.

Pugly: ‘Kay. So this one’s titled “My (28F) boyfriend's (30M) ex hid a note about cleaning/dating habits right before they broke up that I just found. How do I talk to him about cleaning habits without him feeling like I’m using his ex’s words against him?”

Poppy: So… The current girlfriend saw the ex-girlfriend leave a note about his cleaning habits?

Pugly: Precisely.

Mickey: [laughs]

Poppy: Now that is what I call sisterhood, okay?

Pugly: [laughs]

Mickey: That's a girl's girl.

Pugly: Yeah.

Poppy: Good girls.

Mickey: Good girls. Bad boy. [laughs]

Pugly: [laughs]

Mickey: Do you think she noticed that he has bad hygiene or whatever cleaning habits before the note or…?

Pugly: I mean, she had to have been cleaning to find the cleaning note, right?

Mickey: Oof. Yeah.

Poppy: Yeah. She probably didn't leave it on the fridge or something.

Mickey: Yeah. [laughs]

Pugly: [laughs] Yeah, probably not.

Mickey: So, did she give any other details or like, that's it?

Pugly: No, she does give more details. I just wanted to get your initial reactions.

Mickey: Oh, okay. [laughs]

Pugly: Yeah, this was posted in the r/relationship_advice subreddit. [laughs]

Mickey: It’s like… [laughs]

Pugly: Just your confusion is hilarious to me. Um, this was posted about a month ago.

She says: I (28F) and my boyfriend (30M), who we’ll call Steve, have been together for two years and have been living together for 8 months. I was cleaning our apartment when I found a note in the back of a cabinet.

For context's sake, I'll copy it below: 

Dear Steve's future girlfriend,

I know it's you reading this because he'd never clean back here. I'm putting this here because I'm leaving him soon and want to warn you about him.

He will not clean.

He will not listen.

He will make everything feel like it’s your fault.

It's not your fault. He's just an incompetent man. I'm leaving him. I suggest you do the same.

Best wishes,

Natalia (name changed)

I read the note and brought it to show him and hear his response. He immediately ripped it up and said not to listen to it, that she was crazy and untrustworthy. I told him that the fact that he hasn't found it in the five years since they broke up is a red flag to me because it does mean he's never cleaned back there and that he has been cleaning less and less since I moved in. He told me that it wasn't a problem before the note. This is just his ex continuing to manipulate and ruin his life, and I was letting it work. We continued to argue along the same lines, and I eventually left to spend the night at a friend's place.

Steve has been a great boyfriend so far. He gets along with my family. He has given me gifts and flowers and always tells me how much he loves me. He's not wrong that the cleaning hasn't really been brought up before. The note made me realize it had been less and less and that we needed to have a full conversation.

He texted me afterwards saying he's sorry that I felt like I had to leave, but that it's an a**hole move for me to take a note over our two-year relationship and to leave him and our pets alone.

I don't know what to do or what to believe right now. I'm contemplating trying to find and reach out to Natalia. Her name in real life is pretty unique, so I think I could find her. Steve thinks I should come back home and let it go. That his past shouldn't affect our future.

I feel like I could be the a**hole because everything Steve has said about Natalia does make it sound like she was manipulative and petty throughout their relationship, but I don't know what to trust.

Poppy: Wow. Hm…

Mickey: Well, where was it? Did I miss that? Did she say where it was?

Pugly: In the back of a cabinet, she said.

Mickey: Hm… Could I have missed something in the back of a cabinet?

Poppy: In the back of a cabinet?

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: Like, people really don't clean out their cabinets, so maybe you are crazy.

Mickey: [laughs] I think, like, her being crazy aside too, it's like, I mean, if she noticed that he's been cleaning less and less and she wants to talk about it, then that's totally fair. But, like, I can see why he's pissed off because of the note because, like, let's just say she was crazy, the ex, Natalia. And like, that was the one thing she was right about is that his cleaning was terrible or whatever. Like, just kind of any reminder of her being crazy or whatever would piss me off too, but he has to separate that from, like, his current partner and be like, “Okay, she's not the same person.” Like, you know, “I can be mad at Natalia but also have a mature discussion about this.” Because it's important.

Poppy: Hm…

Pugly: I love this because there's a specific person that comes to mind when I think of somebody that I would wanna warn girls against dating. And, like, I wish I had the foresight to think of this tactic.

Mickey: Who is it? [laughs]

Pugly: [redacted]

Mickey: [laughs]

Pugly: Yeah, he sucked a**. He tossed a salad so hard.

Poppy: Oh my God. He sounds like it. Do you know any [redacted]’s that don't toss salads? I mean, come on.

Mickey: Very true.

Pugly: He was rumored to [baby laughs], so…

Poppy: Interesting.

Pugly: Mhm. [laughs]

Mickey: [laughs]

Poppy: [laughs]

Pugly: The one thing I want to mention though, I do understand his perspective of being, like, pissed about the note because of the last two things she said of like he doesn't listen and he's going to make everything feel like it's your fault. If that really isn't his personality or his tendency, then I would also be pissed to read something like that about myself.

Poppy: Yeah, because this girl is like, the new girlfriend is moving in with him, which means that they've reached some sort of like, milestone in their relationship to move in together. They like each other. She should know him enough to say “Yes, I want to move in with you.” So… I feel like someone who's controlling or has like narcissist qualities, that would have shown way earlier.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: Well, sometimes it does… I mean, they do wait until there's like a milestone, like you say, to be reached before they show it because they have to kind of lock you down before you're gonna leave.

Poppy: That's true.

Mickey: So, like after marriage or something?

Poppy: Or after a move-in because like, you have nowhere to escape, really.

Pugly: Right, like if you've signed a lease together or something.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: But anyways, should we move to the edit?

Poppy: Sure.

Pugly: When we moved in together 8 months ago, the cleaning was 50/50. Since then, he's been doing things less and less, and I'd say it's at like 70/30, maybe 60/40 if he listens to me right away. It depends on the week. I have to remind him to do things like bring his plates to the sink or take out the trash, and I didn't have to before. The dishes will pile up unless I do them, to the point that he's had leftover food mold on the plates.

I'm not a confrontational person, so I was just asking him to fix it when it came up. The note made me reflect on it more and try to have an actual full conversation. And I will say I didn't feel listened to when I talked to him about it.

I tried to use the note to start a conversation about cleaning. He got so stuck on that I was listening to his ex instead of him that he wouldn't listen to what I think are valid concerns. He thinks I'm letting the note have “confirmation bias,” so no matter what he says, I'll think he's in the wrong.

Also, I didn't leave him permanently. This all happened yesterday, and I only spent one night at a friend's because I didn't feel like our conversation was going anywhere last night, and he wouldn't let me sleep until I let it go. I'm going back today and wanted to get advice and feedback before I do. 

Another edit she posts is: I appreciate all these comments with advice. I'm heading back to our place now. My plan is to first apologize for immediately bringing him the note without thinking of his feelings and validate that it's hard to have an ex's message found.

That being said, you're all right that I've been letting the cleaning stuff get away. I don't want to be in a relationship where I have to ask him repeatedly to clean. It was pointed out to me that he should have cleaned the shelves during his move from his ex's place. The fact that it hasn't been touched in five years is forcing me to take the note seriously.

I don't want to throw away two years, so I'm going to ask him to come up with some clear cleaning expectations with me and designated chores. I will make it clear that cleaning is absolutely a dealbreaker for me. It's his decision on how he wants to respond. I'll try to update you all. Again, thank you so much for the advice.

Mickey: [sighs] She was right. The ex was right.

Pugly: Believe women.

Poppy: Yeah.

Mickey: Yeah. I mean, we were giving him the benefit of the doubt, but he's running away from this conversation because—not because it's emotional for him or whatever, just because he doesn't want to do work. That's literally it. Like, I hated—I forgot to say this earlier—when he told her it's such an a**hole move for you to like leave, like you're being an a**hole by leaving, that's not called being an a**hole, that's called like you need some time away.

Poppy: Yeah.

Mickey: So… The fact that like now she's reflecting, she's like, wait, this is, this has been happening for a while and he's like, “No, it's not. You're just, like… You're gonna, you're not gonna believe me no matter what I say,” he just doesn't want to do any of the work.

Poppy: And then he tried to say, like, “Shame on you for bringing me the letter when you found it. You didn't think about my feelings.” Like the fact that you are so stuck on that letter and thinking that, and bringing the letter back up, thinking everything is about the letter… That means you're guilty of something. It's your guilty conscience.

Mickey: Mhm.

Pugly: Mmm…

Mickey: Yeah. At some point, you're the problem, you know?

Poppy: Men have a really hard time dealing with that.

Mickey: Yeah. Hey, your behavior is not okay.

Poppy: Or everything is justified for their behavior, and they try to convince you that, “Oh, I acted this way because the situation deserved it.” No!

Pugly: It also makes me think that this pairing has worked for this long for a reason. That, like, she's probably a passive person that just lets him get away with s*** that most people wouldn’t because she's just like, “Oh, well, he, he nice things for me occasionally, so I'll clean up his moldy a** plates.” Like, what the h***?

Poppy: Mmm… So you think she's a pushover?

Pugly: Yeah. Because like if she hasn't brought this up yet and she just needed the push from this letter—

Poppy: Ohh, yeah, yeah. Because like we're assuming that he actually wasn't 50/50 with cleaning.

Pugly: I assume her estimates, her later estimates, were probably more accurate of the 60/40, whatever, 70/30.

Mickey: I can't believe he would let things mold over. In the open.

Pugly: I know. Isn't that the grossest?

Mickey: Sometimes I will discover that something in the fridge has molded over because I haven't opened that drawer in a while. You know? It happens. And I throw it away. But like, to just have it out on the counter or in the sink and it's molding?!

Poppy: That's nasty.

Mickey: I hear this a lot actually, like, a lot of, um, men and women when they get together, like, the woman's like, “Oh, he's used to clean and then he doesn't anymore or doesn't as often.” And then the man's like, “Well, she just nags me all the time,” and it's like this is such a tired topic. Like, when are we gonna catch up to like, you know, let's just show up to our relationships, you know? When is that gonna happen?

Poppy: I'd like to know.

Mickey: I know, I'm sick of this story, you know? Not this story specifically, but like, just hearing this story over and over again. I'm not saying all men are stupid or bad or whatever. It's just like, why, why is this such a big problem? Like, why can't you just pull your weight in the house?

Pugly: It's a theme.

Mickey: Mhm.

Poppy: This has been an issue for generations.

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: Of men not pulling their togetherness in the household.

Mickey: Well, the thing is, like a couple generations ago, women were at home. And like, the house was just women, like women's work, you know? And then, now it's like, it's both because women are also working etc., etc.. So it's like, when will men catch up to that, you know? That's my question, really.

Poppy: I will say like a stay-at-home mom, stay-at-home parent, like, if someone is going—physically going to work every single day, it is only fair for you to do majority of the household things and like, maybe even have dinner ready for the person that's coming home.

Mickey: Absolutely.

Poppy: And I'm not saying work from home person, I'm just saying like, literal stay-at-home parent. But if both people are physically going to work and coming home every single day, you gotta do, you gotta half it. And, and then also being, like, because it's just never gonna be 50/50 parenting; the mom is always gonna do more, but like the household stuff, that better be 50/50.

Mickey: Absolutely.

Poppy: That's just my take on life.

Mickey: And you have to show up 100% or like 80% or whatever to the thing that is yours. Like let's say, let's say my thing is washing dishes. (I actually love washing dishes, you guys.)

Poppy: Oh my God. I hate it.

Pugly: But like, if I sign up for washing dishes, I can't just like, start slacking on it. And then need my partner to remind me. Because that part of like your partner having to remind you, that's another task. Like I, you know, I'm sure we've all heard this before. Like, it's another mental load of like your partner having to put in the work because you don't want to. Like now, your partner is not a partner is that they're, they're your parent.

Poppy: Very well said.

Mickey: Thank you.

Poppy: Welcome.

Pugly: Well, should we move on to the update?

Poppy: Let's do it.

Mickey: Oh yeah.

Pugly: It says: I followed your advice from the last post and tried to have a calm discussion with Steve. When I apologized for confronting him with the note, he seemed to take that as an admission of guilt and refused to listen to anything else.

I had come up with a list of specific instances of not cleaning like many of you suggested, and he said I was using lists just like his manipulative ex. So yeah, the crazy ex thing you all said was a red was definitely true. 

When I realized the conversation wasn't going anywhere, he even tried to block me from leaving. That's when I knew it was done and left immediately. Two years down the drain, but I'm glad I had the wake-up call before it was too late.

I will let him cool off, and then I'll ask my brother to come with me to grab my things while he's not there. He has a strict work schedule, so I think it'll work out.

I am planning on leaving a note there, but probably a little longer with the advice not to show it to him. I'm leaving it in the exact same place, so if he doesn't learn his lesson about cleaning, it'll come to haunt him. All he has to do is clean.

The biggest surprise out of all of this is that I didn't reach out to Natalia; she reached out to me. Apparently, he borrowed his friend's phone to call her, screaming that she's ruining his life still. The fact that she blocked him and he still had her number memorized just further confirms he was the crazy ex, not her.

Natalia found me on social media and wanted to make sure I was okay and was especially concerned that he'd gaslight me like he tried with her. I thanked her for leaving the note and saving me time. We scheduled coffee for Thursday afternoon.

I wanted to thank you all again for the advice, especially the person who posted the love is respect website. I took the healthy relationship quiz after our conversation, and it wasn't great. You called out how he was weaning me into an unhealthy relationship so well. 

For now, my friend said I can stay until I find a new place. I have emergency savings and a decent job, so I'm in a privileged place when it comes to this messy breakup, and I'm just trying to feel grateful for that.

Mickey: Wow.

Poppy: I’m confused why Natalia reached out. Like was that necessary? Why did she reach out? “Are you okay?” Like, nobody really does that.

Pugly: Maybe she was concerned about her well-being and that's why she was calling?

Poppy: If you were in that situation, would you go out of your way to find the newly ex-girlfriend and, “Are you okay?” Like, would you do that?

Pugly: I might.

Mickey: Maybe, maybe there was like more to their story. Like he got further with Natalia in like gaslighting her…

Poppy: Like abuse, maybe?

Mickey: Even if it's just like, you know, mental/emotional abuse, like, maybe he got further in than just saying like, “No, I, I do clean and you're just a crazy girl.” Like maybe he got further than that, so that's why she's worried? Or like, maybe because he called her yelling?

Pugly: Yeah.

Mickey: I don't know. 

Poppy: Also, just because he still knows her number by heart isn't like… If he knew it for five years or whatever, however long him and Natasha were together… Natalia. What is her name? [laughs]

Pugly: Natalia.

Poppy: Natalia. Um, I don't think it's that bizarre that he knew her phone number.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: I think it is because like, who memorizes numbers in this day and age? Do y'all?

Poppy: I mean, no.

Mickey: I only know my mom and my dad and me. That's it.

Poppy: Yeah. My mom, my dad, my brother, me.

Mickey: Oh, actually, actually, you know your phone number, Pugly.

Pugly: Of course I know my phone number.

Mickey: Oh, I, I, I mean, I know your phone number.

Pugly: Oh, okay. I know your phone number too.

Mickey: Oh, nice.

Pugly: It's [redacted]. 

Mickey: That's correct. Do you know anyone else's, like your mom and dad?

Pugly: I know, I know my mom's number. I don't know my dad's number because he doesn't use his phone.

Mickey: [laughs] Oh, okay.

Pugly: Uh, Gem1n-eye posted: Kind of sounds like everything she warned you about in the note came true. He had never cleaned there; he didn't listen to your concerns; and he turned it back around on you and somehow made it your fault. Red flag, honestly. 

Would y’all agree that this is a red flag?

Mickey: Absolutely.

Poppy: Yeah, 100%. Very much a red flag.

Mickey: This is a man who doesn't know how to grow because he, when his last relationship ended, obviously like the whole, “That's my crazy ex” is a huge red flag. I will never believe anyone who says, “That's my crazy ex,” especially who like, has many crazy exes. It’s you, you’re the problem. But, um, instead of like being like, you know what? Our relationship ended, even if she is crazy and like, whatever, like, how could I have done better? Like, he didn't do that and start like, cleaning. He's not gonna do it. He's never going to start cleaning. He's never gonna… It's not in his value system. He like, doesn't care if the place is clean. Like he's gross, disgusting piece of s***, so…

Poppy: You can't change somebody to be much cleaner than what their baseline is, especially, he's 30.

Mickey: Yeah, and especially because he's like, fighting it.

Poppy: He's so defensive about it.

Mickey: Yeah, all you have to do is be like, you know, okay, like, I don't think it matters if I do this, but because it makes you happy and I see how much effort you put in and blah, blah, blah… So okay, I'll contribute. That's all he has to do, but he's prioritizing himself over the relationship, so…

Pugly: Yeah. Another commenter said: So what is your experience with number two and number three of Natalia's note? Did you see some truth in her words there with your own past experiences with Steve? 

And ThrowRA-ex-note, the OP, says: He does listen to me, I think. Like when he gets me flowers, he knows my favorite. We have some hobbies in common and love to talk about them.

I feel like the most he's not listened is in this situation because he refused to get past the fact that I'm “listening to his ex over him.” That being said, since we moved in together, I do feel like he's putting in less effort when it comes to starting conversations or initiating quality time. 

To number three, this is hard for me to answer. I think I can be a people pleaser and tend to think things are my fault anyway, but he's never directly said, “That's your fault” when it comes to conflict.

Poppy: You know what? They probably broke up, and she probably got back together with him. Oh, no, but she left a letter, she left a letter.

Pugly: She could take it back though.

Poppy: Yeah. She knows where it is and no one… Yep. It's not like he would find it.

Pugly: [laughs] Yeah. I can't believe she's putting it in the same place though. Is that smart? Does he know where the last note was found?

Poppy: Even if he did, if he doesn't go back and clean it, he won't see it.

Pugly: He doesn't have to clean it. He just has to go check for the note.

Mickey: Maybe he doesn't think that she would do that.

Pugly: Maybe not, because she's such a people pleaser.

Mickey: Yeah. 

Pugly: She did have one final update.

Mickey: Okay, what's the update?

Pugly: The update is: As you can tell by my original post, I like to do things right away. It was definitely a mistake to bring him the note right away, but doing the things I did this morning right away was not a mistake, as it allowed me to save my pets. 

First, I want to respond to the comments saying I broke up a two-year relationship over a note and chores. No, I broke up a two-year relationship because when I tried to come up with solutions to an unequal situation, his response was to yell and try to convince me there was no problem except me. The final straw was when he physically blocked me from leaving the house after he was screaming at me. That is not okay, and no one should stay with a man who responds to conflict like that.

The actual update: I wound up texting the post to Natalia last night, and she thought it was great. She, like some of you, asked me about the pets. For context, one of the things Steve and I connected on was our love for little creatures. It's why I thought he was such a great guy, because if he could take such intricate care of his lizard, he could do the same with me. I was very wrong.

He has one lizard he bought before me and then we bought two frogs together. I have a snake I brought with me when I moved in. I was planning on waiting until he cooled down to go grab my things and the frogs and snake, thinking he would never hurt them. But Natalia changed my mind. She said he could get destructive when he's mad and was concerned about the safety of my little guys. I immediately knew I couldn't wait until later this week and reached out for a meeting with the landlord for early this morning.

I wound up Facetiming with Natalia last night, and we had a long discussion. Natalia is a lawyer and told me that in our state, landlords are required to let me get out of the lease I signed in cases of domestic violence. She also told me that his yelling, gaslighting, and refusing to let me leave are all types of abuse. It's definitely hard for me to sit with that, but the love is respect relationship quiz helped me also realize that a bit more last night. Apparently, his constant messaging and control over what I wore and when were signs of abuse too.

Anyway, this morning, Natalia volunteered to come talk to the landlord with me alongside my brother. As soon as he heard the word lawyer, he was on top of it, and said I could break the lease but would still have to pay for all of August even though I'm leaving three days early. I felt like that was fair. He also messaged Steve to say the apartment needed to be empty for the emergency maintenance all day today so I could pack my things. Steve messaged back that he was at work all day and wouldn't be home until 6:00 PM.

When I got into the apartment, it was a mess. He had broken my dishes that I had brought with me on the ground and left the shards laying about. My clothes were ripped up and scattered around our room. It was disgusting and heartbreaking.

He left his lizard alone but opened the tank doors for our frogs and my snake. Luckily, the frogs were still chilling in their enclosure, but my snake had gotten loose. This made me the most mad, as she could have gotten cut on the broken plates. I feel so fortunate that she was just hiding in the closet corner, and I was able to pack her up safely in her enclosure again. All my things are packed, and I'm writing this as my brother drives me back to my friend's house right now. 

Natalia told me that she actually left three notes, one in the cabinet, one on the underside of the vacuum, and one in the crumb catcher of the toaster. While we were there, we checked to see if the notes were still there. The one on the vacuum was, but it looks like Steve did clean out the crumb catcher at least once in the past five years. He never told me he had already found a note in our conversations, so it caught me by surprise.

Natalia and I left the vacuum note as is and replaced the cabinet one. I wasn't comfortable leaving my name on a new note, so my addition was a handout on healthy versus unhealthy relationships and a QR code to the quiz that woke me up. Natalia said if he didn't find the notes in those five years, especially after the move, he probably won't find them again. I'm inclined to agree, especially given he did find one but then didn't even clean the rest of the house to see if there was any more.

Steve doesn't make sense to me, and seeing the state of the apartment really woke me up to the fact that I have no idea who he is. The Steve I knew would never animals in danger, but I don't think I ever really knew Steve. 

To the people saying it's pathetic that I broke up my relationship because of chores and Reddit, I encourage you to reflect on the subtle ways that abuse starts. This Reddit thread woke me up to it and gave me the resources to get out safely before it got any worse. I also made an appointment for a therapist. I'm very lucky that my job has good insurance, so I should be able to work through this relationship, and I'm hoping to focus on boundaries and my people pleasing habits so I never find myself in this situation again. 

To the people wishing that Natalia and I would get together, we had a good laugh about it. Natalia is engaged to a wonderful man who cleans, listens, and reflects. She said there's a phenomenon that when people break up with their awful ex, their soulmate can quickly follow. I'm hoping that's true. Regardless, I do think I got a good friend out of this, especially since Natalia is a snake mom too.

This is my final update. I hope if you learn anything from my experience, it's that abuse doesn't start right away. First, there's love bombing, gifts, and pretty words, and then slowly, they test how much you'll put up with. You should never have to put up with anything. Especially moldy freaking plates.

Mickey: Aww. Damn, I'm glad she got out of there.

Poppy: Natalia, sweetie, why did you show up with her to the landlord?

Mickey: [laughs] Is it rubbing you the wrong way?

Poppy: Like, you don't even know each other—Yeah, that, I still was stuck… I made that sticky note in my brain to not pass over that because I was like, I'm still questioning why this girl was so involved.

Pugly: I think they're both people pleasers and that's why—

Poppy: They're all weird.

Mickey: [laughs]

Poppy: They're all weird. The snake, the reptiles, I'm sorry.

Pugly: [laughs]

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: The assortment of reptiles, and then, let's also not forget that he trashed the place and ripped up her clothes like a crazy person.

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: And let the snake out. Like, why? He even opened up the lids for the frogs that they got together.

Mickey: I just can't believe, I can't believe he trashed the place and it's his place, and now he's going to have to clean it. [laughs]

Poppy: He’s such an idiot. He's such an idiot.

Mickey: He did it to himself.

Poppy: He already struggles in that department.

Mickey: Yeah. It's gonna stay there until the next girlfriend. [laughs]

Poppy: Oh my God.

Mickey: Yeah. I, I have no doubts that he can probably get violent, you know?

Pugly: Mhm.

Mickey: If he's doing that to her stuff, like, yeah.

Pugly: This person said in response to the comment that “the Steve I knew would never put animals in danger,” they said: That really freaks me the f*** out on these posts. The idea that you can know someone enough to start working on a life together but not actually know them.

Mickey: Mhm.

Pugly: Another person responded to the part where she said, “But it looks like Steve did clean out the crumb catcher at least once in the past five years.” They said: Steve probably didn't have a choice for that one. The paper and crumbs mix would have started smoking at some point.

Poppy: That was a stupid one. That's exactly my thought. I was like, “That's really dumb to put that there, it could catch fire.”

Mickey: [laughs] So, even that one, it wasn't like by choice, he wasn't even cleaning.

Poppy: That was a real red flag. Hazard.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: A red flag hazard.

Mickey: [laughs] Not a regular hazard.

Poppy: Flaming hot flag. [laughs]

Mickey: [laughs] Yeah. I'm glad she got out of there. I'm glad she has like family, it seems, and now Natalia. [laughs]

Poppy: Yeah.

Mickey: But, you know, I have seen like… It's just on TikTok, it's anecdotal, but I have seen like, exes who have been, like, exes to the same abusive person, they will bond over that. Have y’all seen videos like that? Where they become friends? Or like when, for example, a guy is with several people and doesn't tell them all and then they find out about each other and then they become friends and they leave him, you know?

Poppy: Just that movie. There's that movie with Cameron Diaz in it.

Pugly: I've never seen this movie.

Poppy: I'm sure you have.

Mickey: Maybe it's that, that thing of like, it's kind of…

Poppy: It's a chick flick.

Mickey: It's like solidarity because y'all understand what each other has gone through. No one else does. Like I, and there's other people who've been through abusive relationships probably, but you can't, like, people don't advertise that. It's hard to find people unless you go to, like, a group, you know? Or something like that.  So this person is the only person who knows exactly what you're going through, so maybe that's the bond that they're feeling? 

Poppy: Or just like, relating to a person because, like, you could also bond with somebody's, like, sibling, right? Like…

Mickey: Yeah. Yeah. Very true.

Pugly: So I have a question for y'all. If you were leaving a relationship and you wanted to leave a note to your ex's next partner, what would it say?

Poppy: Yeah. What note would you leave?

Mickey: Ooh. Um… Extremely avoidant, beware. [laughs] Um, if you ask him to go to a therapist and he doesn't, he's never going to.

Poppy: Okay. Broken promises.

Mickey: That's a big one. Yeah. That's literally the theme, yeah, of my last relationship, honestly: broken promises. So… But that's, that's the thing, it's hard to find, like, you know, we talk about, she's been with him for, like, two years, but it's like, as a relationship gets more and more serious, then you find out all these, like, red flags.

Poppy: Yeah.

Mickey: It's so hard when something is so small. Like, he might have done something like this when they were, like, early dating, but it was so small that she was like, oh, he's just, you know, he's just like—

Pugly: Quirky.

Mickey: [laughs] Quirky. Yeah, exactly. Um, but then, like, it starts manifesting in these, like, really big behaviors of like, you know, either uh gaslighting or avoiding extremely, or like, whatever it is, and you're like, what the f***? I invested so much into this. What do I do now? It's really hard. Like, I wish there was like a way, I mean, maybe you guys know. Is there a way to, like, fast track finding out those red flags?

Pugly: Mmm…

Poppy: I don't know. I, I think it's all based off of like when you're about to combine two lives together, like, and, and I, I, I think in a physical way. Like you're getting closer to the point of moving in, no matter what, like, once you become a part of each other's day, every single day, and there's no more like separate place to leave, then that's when the pressure sets on and like people really do show you their true selves.

Mickey: Mhm.

Pugly: That's what we were talking about earlier with the milestones of pregnancy, marriage, moving in… These different milestones where you're tied to the person in a more intimate, deeper way than you had been before, I think can really show you people's true colors.

Poppy: Mhm.

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: Or is it because you start to get more annoyed because you've been with them longer and like, when stressful things, like, I don't know, like—

Mickey: I'm sure that's part of it, but like, if it's constantly bothering you, I think that's the thing. If something is constantly bothering you and your partner doesn't address it, then, like, that's something that you can tell even from the beginning. Well, not always. [laughs] But, you know…

Poppy: Most, you know, most things, most things.

Mickey: Yeah, even if it's just like, you know, I've told you a million times that I'm lactose intolerant. Why are you getting me ice cream? Like, you know, this is someone who doesn't listen, who doesn't like, you know?

Poppy: Yeah.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: The OP had an interesting comment that I just wanted to read. She said: Honestly, I just want to put this behind me. Most of the clothes were ones he bought me. I thought they were sweet gifts, but looking back on it, I'm realizing he pushed my style out for the one he prefers. He liked to dress me exactly the way he wanted, so I'm okay leaving the clothes behind. I can get new dishes and new clothes that fit me. I have my pets, and that's all that matters to me.

That was interesting to me. Just the fact that like, he was like, literally controlling her to the point where her whole wardrobe was picked by him.

Mickey: That's crazy.

Pugly: Yeah.

Poppy: Was he buying it?

Pugly: I assume so, but I don't know.

Poppy: If he was paying for it, I can find that to be a little romantic. [laughs] But, but, you know…

Mickey: I think he was also telling her like, “Don't wear, you know, your clothes, like, they're ugly.”

Pugly: Yeah.

Poppy: Oh, no, that's not romantic.

Mickey: [laughs]

Pugly: No. Not at all.

Mickey: Yeah. I saw a TikTok today that was like me, I want a controlling man, and then it's like also me and she's like, he, he's like telling her like, I didn't like when you and she like, starts beating him up, like, “Don't talk to me that way.” Um, that's very me. Like… Or she said dominant man, not controlling man, sorry.

Pugly: Nobody wants a controlling man.

Mickey: Nobody wants a controlling anything.

Pugly: No.

Poppy: So true.

Pugly: I like that she came out of this with a friendship. I know Poppy was thinking it was a little weird of Natalia to be so involved, but I actually enjoyed that aspect of it, and I think it's like the circle of life, the fact that she lost something but also gained something.

Mickey: Aww, that's deep. I mean, yes, like, I don't really know why I'm hating on Natalia. I still think it's a little off, and, like, I think she's a little bit crazy too, but she was nice enough to, like, make sure that she was alright, wasn't like, hurt, had somebody because she was in those shoes before.

Pugly: Mhm.

Poppy: So…

Pugly: Maybe you're just like, a little, like, skeptical of her intentions, maybe? Is that why—

Poppy: That’s exactly right. You pinned the nail on the donkey.

Pugly: Yeah. I, I guess, because it could be love bombing on her part too, in a way.

Poppy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, glad everyone's all right.

Mickey: Hallelujah.

[Theme song]

Mickey: Alright, so, uh, I have another story for us with the same theme.

Poppy: Okay!

Mickey: So it's “My (34F) fiancé (38M) constantly overreacts when I mess up, and I feel like I'm going crazy.”

Poppy: I already just feel uneasy about this.

Mickey: [chuckles] Okay, so, uh, fiancé and I have been through the ringer the last five years. Long distance during COVID, parental loss, drug abuse on his part. I didn't realize for the first couple of years, but after 2-3 years, I started noting how flustered and annoyed he gets at the smallest inconvenience. Had longer conversations with his friends about it, and apparently he's always been like this and quick to anger. I guess he just hid it from me.

Here's an example of something that happened recently. I'll preface by saying that I absolutely know I f***ed up. My fiancé had a film screening at a film festival this week, which we knew I'd miss due to work. I said I'd meet him and his friends at a bar afterwards. Long story short, by the time I had gotten home, eaten dinner, and gotten ready to go, they had been at the bar for an hour already along with all the other filmmakers. 

I got dolled up and headed to catch a train which had, which had delays when I arrived. I messaged to say I was going to catch a cab, but he said that things were ending soon, he thought I'd be there by now, and I should go home. In hindsight, I should have ignored that and still showed up.

Pugly: Why?

Mickey: I guess she's saying, like, you know, maybe he didn't really mean that, like, he would have just wanted the support regardless.

Pugly: You can't mind read. 

Poppy: Mhm.

Pugly: But anyway, sorry to interrupt.

Mickey: Yeah. That is a big one. Like, good communication doesn't mean that the person reads your mind.

Poppy: Mhm.

Mickey: Yeah. So, um, continuing: The next day, he's big mad upset with me. [laughs] I had no idea the night would be so short. He was home by 9:30 on a Friday night. Yes, I would have been late and yes, I know I'm entirely in the wrong here; however, his huge reaction and refusal to talk it out with me today is just one example of what happens when I make a mistake.

He's usually pissed at me for days. His friends of 10+ years have all seen it and are sympathetic to what I have I have to deal with. So I know I messed up here. I know I absolutely need to take responsibility, and I do. I know he has an expectation that I did not meet. I know he needs a little bit of time to calm down before he can have a conversation about it. Fine. But each and every time, his reaction seems hugely out of proportion to the offending event—confirmed by friends and family. 

He is a highly sensitive person. So am I. I just don't know how to talk to him about his reactions, mood swings, and how huge fights balloon to. I can feel myself starting to shut down when he gets upset because I know he's going to pretty much silent treat me until he's ready, so I'm just left wallowing around in guilt.

But then my guilt feels larger than it should because of the offending event. It's also very hard to tell someone they're overreacting while they're literally overreacting.

How do I talk to him about this in a gentle way that doesn't just blow up in my face?

Pugly: There's no way. Get out of the situation.

Mickey: [laughs]

Poppy: You see what I'm waving? It's a red flag.

Mickey: [laughs]

Pugly: [laughs]

Poppy: He… Girl, that's scary.

Mickey: Mhm.

Pugly: So, he blew up because he told her not to come to the film festival event and she didn't, and then he was mad because she didn't read his mind that he wanted her there?

Mickey: [laughs] That's exactly it. He, she did as was told, and so he's mad.

Pugly: Wow… And then gave her the silent treatment too, not to mention… That's one of the worst… I've had that happen as well for about a week with someone that I was dating, and it was, it's just ridiculous that people can… I don't know. That that's the way they choose to communicate, or not communicate.

Poppy: That makes them feel better. Yeah. That makes them feel better.

Mickey: And like, it's fine if you need time but communicate it. People just disappear. People who just disappear like, literally crazy. Like what's wrong with you? That's not a relationship.

Pugly: Truth.

Mickey: So, what do we think about her constantly noting “I know it's my fault. I know this is, I did something bad”?

Pugly: People pleaser alert.

Mickey: Yeah… I think, do you guys think that people pleasers are the ones who keep missing red flags or it’s just like a lot of people, you know, miss red flags all the time until they learn?

Poppy: It's not that they're missing them; they're just looking, overlooking them.

Pugly: They're excusing them, yeah.

Mickey: So you guys think that people pleasers get into situations where they excuse red flags more often than non-people pleasers?

Pugly: Yeah. Like, I could see this person being like, “Oh, well, he had a long day, and it was, you know, it was stressful because of the film festival thing and he wanted his awards and, you know, like he was just overwhelmed and, you know, of course he's upset, like, why wouldn't he be? Everybody would be in his situation.” Like you just do that s***, like…

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: Mhm.

Mickey: And that's why it's so wrong to raise your kids to be people pleasers.

Poppy: Right, well, there should be a balance. It's honestly in social situations, you should know when to not be a people pleaser, but sort of go with the flow, and other times you should know when it's acceptable to voice your own opinion and agree or disagree to something, you know? But like, for somebody who just is constantly, like, suppressing things that bother her—and we all do it—but like, because you're also supposed to pick your battles, especially in a relationship. Like, you don't make everything an issue, because nobody likes fighting all the time.

Pugly: I'm wondering. Oh, sorry.

Poppy: No, that's alright. I already forgot what I was gonna say. [laughs]

Pugly: You said nobody likes fighting, I think.

Poppy: Yeah, nobody, like, nobody likes fighting, so like, it's, you do pick your battles but somebody who's just always like, you know, not picking the battle or actually picking the battle too much, I should say.

Pugly: Mhm. Over-picking the battles.

Mickey: Too many battles. [laughs]

Pugly: Too many d*** battles. This war is exhausting.

Poppy: Yeah.

Mickey: Yeah. I, I feel like people who pick a lot of fights have a lot going on internally that they haven't figured out.

Poppy: Mhm. Yep.

Mickey: And they don't know it's internal, like they think it's all external. They think the whole world is against them, but they just haven't figured out who they are or who they want to be.

Poppy: Listen, nobody knows who they are, get in line. Alright?

Mickey: [laughs]

Poppy: Just keep it moving. Let's not make a big deal out of it. [laughs]

Mickey: Yeah. What were you gonna say, Pugly?

Pugly: Um… I just am wondering what the update’s even gonna be because I'm like thinking, “Is this people pleaser gonna be convinced by a ton of Reddit comments saying, ‘You're a people pleaser’ to, like, change her ways, or is she just gonna fall in line with what she usually does and just excuse his red flags?”

Poppy: Well if you're running to Reddit for advice, then you're already like, you know? 

Mickey: F***ed.

Poppy: F***ed.

Pugly: Are you really criticizing the people that we are…?

Poppy: No, no, no. No.

Pugly: Oh.

Poppy: I'm not criticizing. It's just like—

Mickey: Just the general population of Reddit, maybe? [laughs]

Poppy: Yeah, there's a, there's a common theme with everybody. Like…

Mickey: Yeah…

Poppy: I don't know.

Mickey: I think, like, there are some success stories, like the one we just heard, um, from Pugly. I feel like I would count that as a success story. Like, she did go on Reddit, and it feels like that post gave her some insight into, like, you know, “Wait, something is wrong.” But I think it's very rare that a post will blow up like that or like you'll get helpful advice. Like, sometimes people are just like, “Leave him.”

Pugly: Mhm.

Mickey: “He's terrible.” And it's like, that's true, but that's, that's the end result. Sorry, that's the conclusion. Like, you gotta walk her through the rest of it to get there.

Poppy: Mhm. Mhm.

Pugly: I'm under the impression that she's not gonna change just through the Reddit post—even if she said, if the update says, “Oh, well, I, I gave him the silent treatment for a week too,” or whatever, like, I don't think there's going to be a breakup at the end of this just because she seems too deep in her ways.

Mickey: Yeah. I think this, this is like one of those couples that seems like you would see them in like, 40 years, they're married, and they have grandchildren, and she's like, “Oh, he's always been like this,” and like, you know, she just learns to live with it.

Poppy: Hm…

Mickey: But the, the update isn't that that big. It's honestly just like, she just gives another example. And she says she will talk to him. So the example she gives is, um, she says: Often it's something that I really was not expecting a huge blow up about. A few months ago, I got to take home a lot of leftover flowers from an event. I love having fresh flowers around. I took them home and put some in vases. I left the rest on a—I think baking sheet, she meant—off to the side. Then I went and met him and his coworkers after work to watch a game.

The next morning, I woke up to a seething text about how incredibly messy the apartment was, and that he wanted all that s*** cleaned up by the time he got home. Sure, the apartment was a little messy; I had just worked a full five very long days, and this being my first day off, was planning to get to it. But the manner in which he decided to explain his upset was above and beyond what the situation called for.

I've been thinking a lot about how I would have handled this if the roles were reversed, and of course, I'd be upset and angry at first, but today is Sunday, I'm sitting in the office working away with the door ajar, and I've heard him get up and moving. He usually doesn't wake up mentally until the afternoon, so I'll give it a few more hours. But by now, if it were me, I, I would wanna talk about it, explain how hurt I was by his actions, and figure out a path forward. 

We've discussed in the past that we both have different fighting styles. I like to get things resolved quickly, and he needs time to calm down, so this period of waiting to talk always just really sucks for me. I had a really long chat with one of his and now also my friend who used to live with him. He said it sounds like he's blowing something up and out of proportion so he gets an excuse to be mad at me—possibly because he's got cold feet about the wedding and is maybe looking for a way out.

Poppy: Uhh…

Mickey: [chuckles]

Poppy: The text?

Mickey: Yeah. [laughs] For just leaving some flowers on the counter. Like it wasn't…

Poppy: And after working, I came and hang out, to come hang out with you and your stupid friend.

Mickey: Yeah. [laughs]

Poppy: And we got home probably at the same time, and then I had to go to work the next day, so like what?

Mickey: Mhm. Yeah.

Poppy: I don't like him.

Pugly: [laughs]

Mickey: I don't either.

Poppy: Wow.

Mickey: What do you think, Pugly?

Pugly: I mean, she's divulging all these instances where it seems like he's a s***ty partner, and yet not making the connection that that's what he is.

Mickey: Yeah… Yeah.

Poppy: What do you think has her, like, hanging on? Because there's gotta be something, and I don't think it's like the way he loves her.

Pugly: Well, they often say that in abusive relationships the sex is good. I don't know if I agree with that, but from what I understand these kinds of relationships deprive you so much of healthy love and affection that even mediocre things seem amazing to you.

Mickey: Yeah.

Pugly: So maybe that's what's she's clinging on to? Maybe it's that she likes this feeling of, like, feeling undermined or feeling… I don't know.

Mickey: She said that, um… She also works in film in, in a comment, so maybe, like, she likes that they both have the same type of career, and maybe he's, maybe that's something he is understanding of—like long hours or whatever. I don't know what the film industry is like, but that all that stuff, and maybe, maybe it's like, you know, as little as they both don't want to have kids, and she's like, “Oh yeah, that's a big one for me.” Like sometimes when you have like a very, you know, what, what you feel like is a niche type, like, or not type but uh limitations on who you look for in a relationship when you have that, you kind of start feeling like, “Oh, I can't let this go.”

Poppy: Right…

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: Because I don't know if I'll find it again.

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: Or she just, like, has, you know, childhood issues or something. Daddy issues, whatever it is. Like, and just tolerating this from a man when she shouldn't, or… I don't know. She's like, there's gotta be some issue where she feels like she can't leave him.

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: And is tolerating his bulls***.

Poppy: Yeah. Unfortunately, like, she's really not posted much about this, to be honest. Like, it seems like this is her first foray into the idea that they're not perfect for each other.

Pugly: That's unfortunate that she's realizing that now that they're engaged.

Mickey: Yeah. Very unfortunate.

Pugly: But at least it's better than married. 

Mickey: Better than married. It's very… mindful.

Poppy: Mhm.

Mickey: Very demure. 

Poppy: Better now than later. Before you have children with somebody like that.

Mickey: So true. Imagine knowing that you gave your children a father who's like blows up about things. That would like kill me.

Pugly: Were there any interesting comments on this one?

Mickey: Well, some people were just telling her like, you know, “You need to leave him.” Um… That's what I was saying like—

Pugly: Yeah, they didn't give any, like, helpful comments, they just gave—

Mickey: Well, um, there was one person who said something interesting: He is obviously capable of controlling himself since he managed to hide this from you for so long, so to me, that screams that it's intentional. He's using it as a way to keep you under control. It's abusive. He won't change unless he wants to, and it sounds like he won't if his family says he's been this way all along.

Poppy: His family?!

Mickey: I think she, I think they mean his friends. His friends.

Poppy: His friends have said that to her?

Mickey: His friends told her that like he's been this way, like, forever. Like he overreacts to things and like… He, his anger gets the best of him or whatever.

Poppy: The people that should be defending him the most and loving him the most and supporting him the most told his fiancée that?

Mickey: Mhm.

Poppy: That's like, that does nothing but make him look bad.

Mickey: I know. And the, like the last part of the update I said—she had a long chat with his friend—and he said, maybe he's got cold feet about the wedding and is looking for a way out, so he's like blowing things out of proportion as an excuse to be mad at her.

Pugly: Just call it off at that point.

Mickey: Yeah, regardless of what the reason is—I mean, obviously it's like they're engaged, like they need to have a conversation about it—but, um, I think like something is wrong. Like, either he doesn't want to get married or he's actually like this, and this is him coming, like, the real him coming out, and he doesn't want to, like, control it around her anymore, so, like, definitely warrants a discussion, definitely warrants her, like, coming to him saying, like, “I don't like how you're behaving with me.” Like, “This is not cool. This is not part of a healthy relationship.”

And if he doesn't react well, like he doesn't, like, actually want to try and work on his, like, overreactions and everything, then he's not the one for you, sis. Like, he's just not for you. Because if he's for you, he would wanna, like, work on himself.

Poppy: Yep. He would do anything to make it work.

Mickey: Yeah. I, I mean, like, anger is an emotion too. Like, a lot of people dismiss that, like, they were like, “Oh, if you're sad all the time, you're an emotional person,” or whatever. But like, people who are angry all the time never get pegged as like, “Oh, he's emotional.” But he is emotional; he's not, he's not processing his emotions properly. That's childish behavior.

Poppy: Yes. He's being immature.

Mickey: Yeah. So, if he doesn't see that… If he doesn't, he's not willing to work on it, I feel like she should let him go. But I think it does warrant a discussion before she just leaves. What do you guys think?

Pugly: If he's willing to have a discussion. I mean, he keeps giving her the silent treatment, so what is she supposed to do with that?

Mickey: That’s true.

Poppy: Yeah, I don't even know if I'd waste my time and energy on… on that.

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: He sounds exhausting.

Mickey: Yeah. [laughs]

Pugly: He does.

Mickey: I forgot about the silent treatment thing.

Pugly: That hit home for me, like, pretty hard because I never knew how strongly like, of an, how strong of an impact that could have on you until I actually experienced it myself.

Mickey: Mhm.

Pugly: But to, like, for someone you love to just completely ignore you.

Mickey: Mhm.

Pugly: Regardless of how often you reach out to them or try to connect, like, it really stings.

Poppy: Mhm.

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: They put you, it's like they're putting you in time out.

Pugly: Yeah.

Poppy: Feels like time out.

Mickey: And it feels like they're saying, like, everything is your fault.

Pugly: Oh yeah. And if you don't come to that conclusion yourself, then I won't talk to you until, until that happens.

Mickey: Yeah. Ew, that's gross… Yeah. Maybe she shouldn't even talk to him, honestly.

Pugly: Yeah. It could be more harmful than good.

Mickey: Mhm… Well, a lot of heavy stories today. Any, any last thoughts, you guys?

Poppy: Um, I think—and my mom has told me this before—but when someone shows you, like, the red flags or the bad things about them, believe it. And don't think that it's gonna change. Like, don't assume it's gonna change because it's probably not.

Mickey: Yeah.

Poppy: Especially when it comes to relationships. Just don't ignore the, the bad things that they show you. You can accept the bad things. but don't ignore them.

Mickey: Yeah. I think that's a very good summary of what we've talked about today.

Poppy: Shout out to Mama Poppy Seed.

Mickey: [laughs]

Pugly: [laughs]

Mickey: We love you, Mama Poppy Seed. Alright, well, this was a fun episode. I think we can learn a lot here from these posters. Listeners, thank you guys so much for listening. Don't forget to like all of our social media pages and rate us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Okay, Mickey out. [laughs]

Pugly: Pugly out.

Poppy: And Poppy out.

[Theme song]